Official Luthiers Forum!

Just wondering if anyone here has a Techno CNC router? Has anyone looked into Techno?
Any thoughts or insight will be much appreciated. Our use will be the usual guitar parts. We also may be cutting plywood parts for crates and foam parts for packaging.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Hey Bob, I think your choice of machine depends on a) your budget b) your expected rate of production and c) the parts you'll be cutting. If you have a healthy budget, then I'd go right for a VMC similar to what Taylor, PRS, and Martin use (i.e. FADAL 4020's or similar). These machines offer a good balance of accuracy, speed, and power per dollar of investment. In my experience less expensive CNC routers lose some accuracy when running at high feed rates. I'd recommend having the vendor run a representative part for you so that you can see the quality of the cut at varying feed rates. This will show you what kind of quality you'll get and what type of cycle time is typical for that type of machine. This is what we did when I was with PRS (can't recall if we tested a Techno or not) and it refocused our interest right back to FADAL as the routers we tested did not maintain accuracy at high feed rates (>200 ipm). That's my experience, I hope it helps!

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I would have to respectfully disagree on the idea of getting a metal working machine to work wood. Although it can certainly work, it's really optimized for production metal working and not working wood and is thus missing things that are useful for woodworking. For the same amount of money, you can get a lot more in a woodworking machine.

I just looked on line and a used 4020 is listed for almost $35k - you can get a 4'x8' router with a 4th axis and twin 5hp spindles for less than that - course you won't be machining steel with it all day either.

I'm pretty sure that John Watkins is using a couple of Techno machines so you might try contacting him. He had a post in the main forum a month or so ago with contact information.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

I'd be pining away for an automatic tool changer if I had a router based cnc setup. My machines are both larger production level Haas machines...VF4 and TM3. I use the VF4 exclusively for metal and the TM3 exclusively for wood. These machines both have accuracy (the spec would be repeatability) roughly 10 times finer than that of a typical cnc router. This accuracy is not necessary for most of the wood working except when using tiny cutters...in which case programming well can take advantage of that accuracy and eliminate tool breakage.

Back to the point. When programming...I can't imagine getting by without a tool changer. One COULD, of course, but if I had to use a single cutter and make gobs of manual tool changes I'd ultimately have to severely alter my methodology for creating parts and tooling. When I program I account for grain direction and splintering so it often involves number of matched CW and CCW cutters. It's an approach that guarantees the result but it would impossible without a tool changer.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

From the Techno website


Automatic Tool Changer
• Very easy to use and operate
• Machine will automatically pick up tools during tool changes
• Automatic tool length compensation. Using Techno's tool calibration
pad, the machine will automatically record all the tool length offsets
in the machine interface.
• Fully programmable rpm control
• Uses industry-standard tool holders and collets
• Very quiet operation
• Wide range of horsepower
• Available in any voltage rating per customer requirments
• All automatic tool changers come equipped with Techno's Interlock
Safety Board, which monitors spindle actions

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Oh...the longing I have for ATC!

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Andy I'm not sure we will be getting one either. At least not in the beginning.
This Techno seems to have a lot of add-ons and is more affordable. Sure would like to hear from Bob Garrish.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

The higher-end Technos are pretty nice. When I priced one out with a tool changer it was $40K or so.

Having spent 11 years with a two head, light duty router (Shopbot) and a year and a half with a beat up Fadal, I'd never go back to a light duty router. The toolchanger performs a greater function than just changing tools. As Zlurgh mentioned it completely transforms your work and programing flow.

I've always known that mass and rigidity are important but never experienced just how much of a difference they make until now. I'm not saying that the high-end Techno machines don't have enough mass, or rigidity, just that it's incredibly important.

The only thing I miss on the Fadal is spindle RPM. A spindle speeder solves this for small bits - more specifically 1 small bit - but it would be nice to be able to spin every bit at it's ideal RPM.

I have to agree that an ATC makes life much much simpler. Especially if you will be using a handful of bits for all of your operations. You can load up the changer and set your offsets and just leave the bits in there till they are dull. If using CAM software you can set your tools and wont have to worry with that part of the set up from one piece to the next, I dont get to benifit from that though because I have too many different part specific tools. If you will be just using a handful of tools and leaving them in the machine the need for an automatic tool length setter is probably not going to justify the cost. So you could save some money by opting out of that option. Also consider that with an ATC you will be buying more toolholders which can run several hundred dollars a piece. So dont forget to include that cost.

My main focuses would be speed and accuracy. Talk to people with similar machines, and get the salesperson to cut some parts for you to see how accurate it is, how fast it is, and how well it can maintain that accuracy at high speeds. Thats where you are going to make your money. The more you can reduce cycle time while maintaining the integrity of the part and tool the more cost effective you become.

Best of luck with your search.

Awww just switch to MDF and all those problems go away

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Ken

I've got a 1993 techno that I use all the time. I bought it used for 3k and it works well but it's time for new ball screws. Their new freedom routers are much better but you can't get one for $3000.00 !!

I don't have any first hand knowledge on this machine but the ShopSabre looks like a pretty interesting machine as well and is pretty affordable even with an ATC (for the smaller 4x4 version). I know one of the guys on this board uses one. I'd go for the servo version for sure though even if it's a little more.

It's not quite as refined as something like the Techno but it certainly looks like it'd get the job done.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

This is the reason I'm starting the hunt now. So many machines out there. Lot's of reading to do. I used AutoCad quite extensively when I was working but only in 2D civil engineering drawings. Just dabbled a bit in 3D.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Bob,

We have a Techno Premium class 5'x10'x19" ...... weigh's in at about 10,000 lbs......

Overall been pleased.

What do you want to know?

Blessings,

Kevin

Bob,

One thing I was thinking of - whatever machine you end up getting, if it doesn't have an ATC, you'll definitely want to get an automatic tool length gizmo that's wired into your control box.

I use a macro for Mach 3 that uses a fixed tool length plate mounted on the machine so when I do have an M6, the machine moves into the tool change position, I change the tool and then hit cycle start again. The machine moves over to the fixed plate and probes to determine the tool length and goes about it's merry business. Not as cool as an ATC but definitely the only way to go if you don't have one. Takes about 30 sec to change the tool and another 30 to 45 seconds to probe depending on the length of the tool but that is hands off.

I couldn't imagine working without it, manually re-setting Z with every tool change.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

I don't have time to respond right now, Bob, but I'll dig in tomorrow night.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Thanks Bob

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

OK, I'm a bit late on that reply...



I think this is bad advice coming from a good place. The people at Taylor and PRS aren't dumb or naive, the reason they went with VMCs is that the router companies would not commit on paper to their specs. A big part of Taylor's process relies on truly accurate parts, and none of the router manufacturers would give them a guarantee that they'd hold 0.005". In a production environment, the equivalent of a VMC for woodworking is something like a Thermwood or a higher end MultiCAM. I think that dollar for dollar a fixed bridge router is a better machine than a used VMC, but fixed bridge routers aren't cheap.

So far as the Techno stuff goes, I think they're an interesting company in that they offer stuff from sort of a high-end hobby machine up to a light industrial machine. I'm sure the series Kevin is using is production ready, but that isn't a budget machine by any standard. WRT Techno specifically, I think John Watkins would be a great resource on this because he can tell you what you can get away with. The middle ground on their offerings is hard to tell because details can make or break a machine in that range.

What are you going to be using it for? The thing you'll run into on a VMC is usually the Y-axis- the Y on the most common Fadal (the 4020) is 20" and that means you'll get annoyed every time you're cutting a part from 2' stock. On a router, you're going to be limited to the size and type of tools you can use so heavy cuts with a 1" ball or a face mill are out of the question, and if you're going for speed then you can run into repeatability issues. There are amazing efficiency gains to be had when you can run shaper-scale tooling in your CNC.

An ATC is one of those things that anyone who's done real production work will consider an absolute necessity. You can do work without one, and I had to for a few months when mine was down, but the drop in efficiency is enormous. I had it pretty good, since I still had an ATC spindle and could change the tools by hand pretty fast, but even then I had to babysit the machine where I didn't before. Without the ATC, I found myself trying to use fewer tools in programs and that generally meant less efficient programs with higher risk of part defects. The only time you can sort of get around an ATC is if you have large simultaneously fixtured runs of the same part, but even then it's just averaging wasted time out across the run.

My recommendation these days for a woodworking machine would be a used fixed-bridge CNC router like a Thermwood C40 5'x5' and replace the ball screws and control with screws from Automation Overstock and a control from Dynomotion. It's a bit of a project, but you'll end up with a $100,000 class machine for $25K. In an off the shelf machine, for production, I like the look of the Multicam MT machines. That's assuming you're going to be cutting a lot of wood, though. Since I don't know what your aspirations are yet, it's possible you could get by with a Shop Bot.

The offer to secret shop for you still stands, so figure out what you're going to want to do with the thing and let me know. The difference between a machine you want to cut out a few jigs with and a machine you'd want for doing production fingerboards and necks is certainly substantial.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Bob,
I did consider Techno along with several others. Have you considered ShopBot? There are several guitar builders that are using them as well as StewMac and LMI. They offer lots of sizes to fit your needs up to being able to handle 5' x 10' sheets. They come with "user friendly" software and have one of the best forums on the net for users. Granted they are not a HASS or Fanuc but they are designed to cut wood and plenty accurate for our needs. Besides, we are not building rockets

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I'll weigh in on Shopbot. My experience is with a 2001 era PRT44. This is the machine that was using electrical struts for frame members. WAY too light duty. The newer extrusion based machines look pretty nice. We could never really rely on the accuracy of the machine because of the light-duty nature. I spent a full day trying to level and tram the old style Shopbot. Never did get it perfect as it was too flexy. The Fadal took 30 minutes to level and I didn't need to tram it.

The Shopbot forum definitely helped me get started. That was the biggest draw and benefit. The lease payments on the Shopbot were low enough that I didn't need it to be making money right off the bat. I upgraded the controller to a Mach3 box. They've got a lively forum too but much more metal oriented. Mach 3 G-code is more standard than Shopbot code. This only becomes important when you go to learn a new machine.

The Shopbot is an excellent starter machine if you're coming at it with zero experience (assuming the new frames are as sturdy as they look).

Thanks for the offer Bob. I will call you when I digest a bit more of the CNC thing.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Bob,
The only thing I will add is that the bigger the machine the more costly the mistakes. If you have never worked with a CNC machine, G-Code, CAM Software, Post Processors, CNC Tooling, etc, it can be overwhelming at first. Bigger machines (like the VMC's with tool changers) are great for production but to get everything working right isn't an easy undertaking and takes time and practice. As an engineer I spend my days selecting and testing CNC machines for production but really have probably learned my best lessons on my CNC Router at home because the margin of error is greater since the machine isn't as strong and is fairly simple. I can promise you that you will crash and burn as you learn....it is just the way it works. The other guys are right that once you get going a VMC with a tool changer can't be beat for production, I just think it would be an expensive place to start.

Good luck and keep us posted.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Bob if you are looking at used, you need this link if you don't have it.

http://www.exfactory.com/Detail.aspx?recnum=RL-010548

Mike

If you're considering a used router, a Komo would be a very good machine if you can find one in your price range.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Thanks everyone for all the good info. I'll be posting more questions as I move along.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498