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I guess some of the philosophies i learned through wood working are still being applied. Things like "you can always remove more wood later but you can't add it back on if you remove too much."

I just leveled a fresh build today. I think it went well. I'm using that Stewmac 16" beam. It taking a little bit to get used to letting it sit on the frets while not letting it fall off the side. Also, keeping it parallel to the centerline. All of my diagnostics say they're level. We'll see...

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

Ok. I set up the guitar and it seems great except for the low E. It's buzzing up until about the 12th or 13th fret. I can't tell if I have a high fret up there or a low 1st fret. When I have the neck straight, there seems to be either a hump in the middle of the frets on the low "E"'s path. And when it has a touch of relief, the bass side is dead flat. Hmm... Maybe I didn't swipe that side as much as the rest of the neck?

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

And the saga continues...

I'm not sure why this is. It has to be either a technique or evaluation issue. Either way, it's something I'm doing wrong.

It seems that more times than not when I level frets, I check it with a straight edge and everything seem to be level all the way down the board. I had always heard that fall away was important so I make sure there is roughly .005" between the 15th and the 21st or 22nd fret.

However, when I go to string up the guitar and do the setup, I almost always end up with buzzing when fretting at the first fret. Particularly on the low E string.

Sound familiar to anyone? Does that mean that I'm somehow forming a twist to where the individual planes of the frets (bass side, treble side, center, etc.) are level but its all lopsided?

Btw, I typically prefer around 1/16" of clearance at the 12th fret. A little more on the bass side, a bit less on the treble side for a slight taper. Pretty typical.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

Anyone? Beuller? .............. Beuller?

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

First off, are you using a zero fret or is the height at the first fret determined by the nut? If there's no zero fret, buzz on the first fret is probably the nut. No advice for that, I use a zero fret to avoid having to cut the nut slots that precisely.
One other thing, in one post you mentioned staying parallel to the centerline of the neck with the beam. You should be following the string paths with the beam. That could be the source of your E string problems.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I don't level with falloff.

Sounds like you need a little relief in your neck. If it's dead straight you'll get buzzing at the first few frets, if the problem isn't your nut of course.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I just use fall away because I'm not doing a conical radius. It just helps to keep things from buzzing way up in the high frets. Especially on bends.

I'm learning that the reason why most people seem to judge relief by how much the low E clears the lower frets must be because its the one most prone to buzzing being the thickest. Also because, even though we check neck straightness with a straight edge parallel to the centerline on a cylindrical radius, this is not a real-world perspective. The strings don't go parallel. They have a path and, like it or not, the angle increases the further out you get from center.

I just got done with the tele neck I originally posted about and it is my best yet. Both in level and set up. Crowns aren't bad either. I ended up have to pull the frets and redo it from scratch because my poor technique took too much material off in the first place.

I think I was just thinking about it all wrong before. My frets were level. I just didn't fully have a grasp on relief. At some point I may experiment with extra relief on the bass side or maybe a slightly skewed radius. Seems to make sense since guitars aren't really as symmetrical as we would like them to be.

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

You're right about that, especially with a cylindrical radius.

If the neck is dead straight in the very center of a cylindrical radius fretboard, the outer strings will be lying over a minute "hump", so really, the middle strings end up wit slightly more relief than the outer ones when the neck is relieved properly for the low E.

I dress a compound radius into the fret plane on those types of fretboards.

Like it or not, the low E needs a little relief due to the envelope if string vibration.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

The best, easiest, and quickest way I have found to level frets is to use a radius block the same radius as the board. Takes no time at all, comes out great. I used to use the stew-mac leveling beam and I took forever chasing the high and low spots. Then I thought about it, it makes no sense to use a flat beam to level a radiused surface, the nut is radiused, the board is radiused, the frets are radiused, and the bridge is radiused, why use a flat beam to level?

absrec - It sounds like you are slowly figuring it out - that seems to be the only way to learn this since I am not aware of any books that teach exactly what you are trying to learn. The 6th string (low "E") on guitar does want to buzz in a regular set of strings - mainly because it has less tension than it could which makes it more elastic or flappy. I have been using heavier 6th strings for quite some time to combat this and it can definitely help. But what you are really looking for (IMO) is a neck that will adjust straight on the treble side and remain relieved on the bass side. This can be done in the frets but is best done in the fingerboard leveling to minimize the loss of fret height and keep a consistent feel on the fingerboard. It is also best done while simulating tension on the neck so that everything will be as close to "real world" as possible. As well, remember that if you are dressing that much fall away (.005) into the higher frets, you should probably set the relief using a straightedge between the 1st and the 12th-14th fret.

I have started judging relief between the 1st & 12th frets on necks that fall away.

I also started using a combo of the straight beam and radius blocks. I get things level with the straight beam and smooth out the radius with an appropriate sized block. The leveling beam will change the radius so you have to be cognizant of that. I try to true it up every so often while leveling before it gets too out of whack.

The other thing I've noticed is that I've been having to shim bolt-on necks a little bit but not at the rear of the heel like usual. I'm having to shim the nut side of the pocket between 5-10 thousandths. This tells me that my frets are making a slight uphill climb from nut to bridge. I think I'm gonna try leveling out the "tongue" area first and then blending up the neck before leveling out the main playing area. One thing all the straight beams I've used have in common is when they sit on a high fret on one side of the board they tend to viciously remove material from the fret furthest away until everything is level.

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

You are definitely getting it all figured out. Everything you are saying is dead on and no one really talks about it. For example, leveling beams are said to be the best thing since sliced bread but if you are not careful - they can really mess things up. I have gone to using a different type of beam after I realized that a 1" wide beam isn´t the best solution. Just the idea of spot leveling your newly installed or about to be leveled frets seems to be a seldom discussed procedure. Somebody should probably write a book that shows "real world" techniques since there are no real in depth teaching aids.

The shims you are using are a by-product of the sanding beams. I generally start at the upper frets and work my way to the middle of the neck.

It's great to get some confirmation on all this stuff since I'm pretty much flying blind. Unfortunately education is often a blessing to the student but a curse to the teacher. People tend to take things that they're taught too literally and then blame the teacher when something goes wrong. It's probably better that we all learn through trial and error so that we learn WHY we're doing the things were doing.

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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

I have only done leveling on a couple instruments so take this for what it is.
If your frets are buzzing when your playing open notes, its your nut or saddle ; if fretted notes are Buzzing its not your nut it's or frets or saddle. When leveling frets with a block you will remove material more rapidly above the 12th fret than below, because there are more of them per square inch. Sanding can be viewed in terms of pounds of force per square inch. Theoretically a one pound sanding block will remove twice as much fret at the 1st fret as it will the 12th and four times from the 1st what it will remove from the 24th because there are more and more frets per square inch. This means that your first five frets are easy to over sand, while your fret 20-24 will require a lot more sanding and still be hard to destroy. Furthermore if you are like most players you rarely play the low E above the 14 fret so those frets will not be subject to playing wear, meaning they will be the highest frets on the board when you start the procedure.
So the highest, least used, most likely to buzz (do to E string travel)frets, will sand down much slower than the first frets.
GIVE'M HELL! If you go to far, so what? You don't want to play the low E on the 21st fret anyway.