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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:32 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I've seen several guitars online but never played one, with an extra soundhole on the side of the guitar.I guess so that the player can get a better feel of the guitar's sound since the regular soundhople projects the sound away from the player.

Can anyone give me a little feedback on it?

Does it affect the sound in anyway?
Is there a particular place or technique to cut it?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:31 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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They are usually referred to as ports. As in ported speakers. Because that's exactly what you are doing. Porting the speaker (in this case, the guitar body is the speaker)
When I started doing them I was hoping to get more sound up to the player. I was very pleasantly suprised when I found that not only did the player get more sound but the sound out front was MUCH bigger.
Remember back in the old days when you had those 2 qt cans of Hi-C? If you punched one hole in it, it glugged but didn't pour out well. If you poked a second hole (port) it poured out much better. Same thing is happening to the sound waves in the guitar box.
So to answer your question: Yes, it does affect sound. Some will argue that it slightly diminishes bass.
Placement can be argued all night long so I won't even attempt to answer that one.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:13 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks Paul,
is there a particular place where to put them and size?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Koa
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What Paul said.

My experience has been that they always have improved the sound and never have had a negative effect. I have even done a few that have had 2 sound ports and would go as far as to say 2 are way better than one. 2 ports give you a type of stereo effect which is great. I had one customer who did not want the ports when he placed his order. However after I built his second instrument with a port he had me cut one in the first instrument. He came back a year later and had the second port put into the original instrument.

I usually reinforce the area that will get the port by gluing a wooden patch on the inside of the guitar. I bend my sides and join the rim before cutting the holes. Once the rim is together I glue the wooden patch in and cut the hole out. I glue a computer printout of the hole I want on the outside of the rim. I cut the hole out with my dremal on its StewMac router base. After that I clean up the hole with the small drum sander attachment on my dremal and some hand sanding. It is not very high tech but it works. If you are bending sides by machine I think you can cut the hole before you bend. Maybe Paul can comment on that because I think that is how he does it. I bend on a pipe and would not want that hole there while bending.

As far as size and position of the ports, I am still experimenting. Most people put the port on the upper bout. If I do two I put one on the upper and one on the lower. I have found that some player will cover the lower bout hole with there arm depending on how they hold the instrument.

Here is a picture of one with holes in the upper and lower bout. The oval holes are 2 1/4" by 1 1/4" if I remember right.



Any questions?

Josh

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Koa
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I'm sure Alan will jump in here, but when I was at ASIA this year I asked Alan where the best spot was, and he said it was in the upper bout like the first port in the picture above. I haven't done one yet, but on my next I will. Good luck!
Tracy


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:20 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Oh those holes, that's so you can get your pick out, when you flip it inside.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:13 pm 
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I thought those were beer holders.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:00 pm 
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There are a number of ukuleles that are being made with sound ports at the moment. Some of them have a modified Kasha bracing and some have no soundhole on the soundboard at all.

I remember reading a piece about tuning the sound port written by Mike Chock of Hana Lima ‘Ia and who is also Executive Director of The Ukulele Guild in Hawaii. You start by penciling in the desired shape and size of the port. Start you much smaller then your outlines. Then you test by tapping where the saddle will be and recording the volume with a decibel meter. Keep increasing the size of the port in small increments until the decibel meter shows a jump in volume. Continue increasing just enough so the volume decreases. You then bind the port to bring you back to the tuned size for maximum output. I know ukuleles are smaller but it would seem the same principals would apply.

Philip

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:04 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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konacat:
Interesting: one of my students did much the same thing [without the dB meter] on a 12-string reso that he built. He kept making the port bigger until it started sounding worse, and then put in a finish ring. The original hole was too small, and it 'choked', so he needed to do a 'tracheotomy'.

I did a rather long experinent on 'ports' several years ago. I built a guitar with twenty holes in the right side that could be plugged with corks and took it to the H'burg show for players to test out. Then I spent a month measuring the response in various ways with various holes open.

All guitars have a number of resonant modes of the air inside the box. Some of these communicate through the 'normal' soundhole, and some don't. The ones that don't can still effect the tone by changing the way the top works.

The most important of these air resonances is the 'main air' mode, which works the same way as the sound you get blowing across the mouth of a soda bottle. It's a 'Helmholtz' type mode, with the pressure in the body rising and falling as the air moves in and out of the hole. This 'main air' mode works with the 'main top' resonance, which acts like a loudspeaker cone, to form a 'bass reflex couple'. This bass reflex action actually accounts for most of the sound you hear coming from the guitar, all the way up to the fundamental of the highest notes you can play.

When you put a port in the side of the guitar it 'vents' that 'main air' resonance a bit. The pitch of the resonance goes up a bit, but the amplitude drops a little. The air is less effective at pushing on the top, and on the back, too. We don't normally think of the back as producing a lot of power, and it doesn't make much, but it can have an important effect on tone color, and, to the extent that 'venting' the main air mode drops the activity of the back, the color can suffer. More importantly, though, the 'bass reflex' gets a little weaker. Overall, then, putting in a port actually causes a small _drop_ in the output of the instrument when you average over most of the spectrum.

However, that port can also 'hear' internal air resonances that are not normally effective at producing sound directly. These are generally fairly 'narrow band'; effecive only over a small range of frequencies of a semitone or less. Still, the output for those frequencies can be very much greater with the port than without: as much as 4dB, which is more than double the power. Any note with a partial in that range will sound louder.

Thus, when you average over the whole spectrum of the guitar there is a _small_ increase in output. I measured overall gains of a bit less that 3%, and Chaigne, with better equipment, got an increase of about 1% in a separate experiment.

Three things to note about this:
1) Your senses are set up to detect changes, since things that change are more likely to be either edible or dangerous. When you open a port you _will_ pick up the change, and it will often seem huge. This was noticed by players and listeners at H'burg, who often said something like: "Wow! That's much louder" when they opened a hole. However, with a little more playing they would generally say: "Now, wait a minute; that's not really all that much different".
2) You are generally much more sensitive to high frequencies than low. Much of the power loss when a port is opened is in the low range, while the gains are all at higher frequencies. Even with the same amount of power, that redistribution can sound louder.
3) The player almost always loses a lot of the high-end sound, which is 'beamed' away from him by the top and the soundhole: you only hear the reflections. The low-end sound spreads out much more evenly in all directions. A port that faces the player will send some of that high-end sound in his direction, and make the guitar sound louder.

Generally speaking, the closer the port is to the 'main' soundhole, the less change there will be in the timbre of the instrument. Similarly, the larger the hole, the more change in the timbre. However, as far as I could tell, making the hole bigger did _not_ increase the output overall: the narrow-band gain is almost exactly balanced by the wide-band loss, so the overall sum stays much the same, with only a change in balance.

Adding a port _can_ improve a guitar, depending on what it lacked to begin with. It can be kind of tricky to figure out just where to punch the hole for good results.

A port of about 1" diameter somewhere near the wide part of the upper bout makes a nice 'monitor' if you're playing for your own pleasure or in a somewhat noisy and 'dead' room, as for a restaurant gig.

So that's my 'take'.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:16 am 
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Cocobolo
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Alan,

Thank you for the additional information regarding sound ports. I remember seeing a photo of the test guitar you spoke of. When I can ever build my first guitar I am planning to have two ports. It will be a gift for my Father and he is quite hard of hearing. I hope the ports will allow him to pick up more sound at the vibrations will be traveling up towards his ears.

Philip

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:05 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I recently played a Harrison Archtop that had a louvered sound port in the upper bout. It was kinda neat to have a "monitor" that you could turn off and on so to speak.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:59 pm 
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Josh, if you get tired of those extra holes, you can put a quartz clock in one and a humidity gauge in the other one.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:53 pm 
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[QUOTE=Rod True] I thought those were beer holders.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, you're wrong. Those are spit valves!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:55 pm 
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What thickness of patch do you add and do you bend the patch to the contour of the side before installation?

Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:43 pm 
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Koa
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Steve

I don't really have an exact measurement for the thickness of the patch. Usually it is a similar thickness to the side or a bit less. I talked to a number of other builder who don't reinforce the side ports at all! So there is some discussion as to if you really need the patch. I say it doesn't hurt to have the extra strength there. And yes, I do bend the patch a bit before gluing it in place.

After the hole is cut and shaped I usually bevel the edge of the patch back so that it is not visible from the outside of the guitar.

Josh

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:55 pm 
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[QUOTE=Josh H] Steve

I don't really have an exact measurement for the thickness of the patch. Usually it is a similar thickness to the side or a bit less. I talked to a number of other builder who don't reinforce the side ports at all! So there is some discussion as to if you really need the patch. I say it doesn't hurt to have the extra strength there. And yes, I do bend the patch a bit before gluing it in place.

After the hole is cut and shaped I usually bevel the edge of the patch back so that it is not visible from the outside of the guitar.

Josh[/QUOTE]

Josh, Thanks for the info. I'm still on builds 1 and 2 but I've always wanted a guitar with ports and I have an idea I'm going to try. If it works, I'll share it. If not, you'll never hear about it again!

Regards, Stevesfbrown38750.3307407407


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:59 pm 
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] since things that change are more likely to be either edible [/QUOTE]

I've heard of edible underwear, but edible guitars... now there's a concept worth exploring...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:08 pm 
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Todd, thank god you're not addicted to LOL buttons, they'd be flyin' all over the place!    

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:38 am 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Josh H]
I don't really have an exact measurement for the thickness of the patch. Usually it is a similar thickness to the side or a bit less. I talked to a number of other builder who don't reinforce the side ports at all![/QUOTE]

I've done it both ways. I prefer some reinforcement, though, just to be on the safe side.

I use veneer for patches, alternating between light and dark woods. On a guitar I'm finishing up right now, which has cocobolo back/sides, I glued patches of curly maple/dyed black/curly maple veneers where each port would be.

I like using veneers because they don't need to be bent, they add some visual interest, and because they add an adequate level of reinforcement.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:30 pm 
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Al Carruth - Have you or anyone you know of ever built an experimental guitar that could be strung up and played with no back, i.e. where the air resonances are effectively eliminated, because there is no enclosed air? I'd be very interested to know what that would sound like.

It's something I've been curious about ever since it dawned on me that there is a stringed instrument that has no air chamber, only a soundboard... it's loud; it has a rich, complex tone well-loved the world over... not an open-back banjo, I'm talking about a spruce soudboard... yes, a piano, the best example being a grand piano with the lid open (as they are normally played). For anyone who's never looked under a grand piano, there's no "bottom", it's open to the room above and below the soundboard. So, what you hear is all soundboard, no air resonances (other than the room). Now, I know a piano is a very different animal than a guitar in many ways, but still, it kinda makes you think...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Why not just get your hands on a cheapie, and cut out wood between the back braces? It would still be a cheapie, of course, but you could hear the difference.

I suppose I should have thought ahead and made the 'corker' that way. It ought to be possible to make a detachable back of some sort. Oh my; I can just hear another 'science project' forming up. The last one, that 'should' have taken two weeks, is well into it's second year. Nothing takes longer than Science, except maybe Art.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:38 pm 
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Good idea to hack up a cheapie, Al. I'll see what I can find to experiment on and report back.

One of the crazy ideas that has flashed through my head is to make a guitar with a back held on with magnets - maybe implanting little rare earth magnets in the linings and having a very thin strip of steel around the edge of the back... maybe some sort of gasket to dampen buzzing that would otherwise likely occur... or something like that...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:02 am 
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You might even be able to get away with plain old flexible magnet strips on the bracing and liners.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:06 pm 
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Okay, Al, go for it!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:02 pm 
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Al, what does the "Corker" sound like with all the ports open at once? With that many holes, does the air behave, at least in some ways, more or less as though it weren't enclosed at all?

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