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I remember Bob C raving about Target Coating WB shellac a while back. Any
of you used their other products? How does the shellac hold Bob, as good as
alcohol based stuff? They offer laquer, varnish & urethane in WB form. Just
wondering if they're suitable for guitar finish and how they polish, look and
hold in time. I know that most think KTM-9 is the best WB product.
Just wondering, the products sure look attractive.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I've used their USL spray product (aka StewMac Colortone Waterbased) and I was happy for the first few guitars, but on my first acoustic, it's reacting with my sweat on the bass side lower bout, where my right forearm rests when playing, and kind of 'flaking' off. The rest of the body is fine, no problems, but I'm going to give KTM-9 a shot, see if that agrees with me a little bit better. The USL looked pretty darn good, rubbed out well, but stays a bit soft. Someone reccomended Target's 9000 series varnish as an alternative, and it looks a touch more durable, but I have a tin of KTM-9 to try first.

If I could spray nitro safely, I'd do that. Or use polyester. Since I can't, I'll be using KTM-9 (assuming that works out OK for me) for those guitars that need a glossy finish/harder finish, and french polishing those that can deal with the slight fragility.

Laurent
I like the WB shellac very much. Whats really nice is that I can spray it and gun cleanup is very easy. A nice light coat seals in those woods that have a tendency to bleed. I have used Targets USL but I have have switched to KTM-9 and have had very good results. Nitro, polyester and any other of those finishes are best left to professionals like Aadam & Tony IMHO.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Their USL waterboren is a good product, my only complaint is it has a much more blue tint than ktm9

So Mattia, what you're saying is that the urethane does not dry super-hard
and is chemically fragile?
Bob, you're using the TC WB shellac just as a wash coat, not as a sealer,
undercoat or even finish?
I was wondering about the WB varnish -and using the WB shellac as a
sealer-, but it probably doesn't dry as hard as nitro would.
Looking for a safe, healthier alternative to nitro.
I like traditional shellac as a finish, it looks terrific, but too fragile in the long
run. For the way steel-strings are usually handled anyway…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

The USL is fragile-ish to some chemicals in my sweat, apparently, and I've read several reports of gunky necks because of the stuff. Waterbased stuff is simply different to Nitro; it's a touch softer, but it makes a fine looking finish that does the work. The electrics I've done with it are holding up just fine. Apparently the 9000 series stuff is harder, but I'd shoot the guys at Target an email with more questions; they're good about that.

Laurent I just gave one example but I have used it for all of the applications you mention. I was hoping that Mario would comment. I know he likes Target's WB shellac too.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Im sealed the floor in my spray booth with their WB shellac <g> Plenty tough...

[QUOTE=Mario] Im sealed the floor in my spray booth with their WB shellac
<g> Plenty tough... [/QUOTE]

Would you finish a steel-string guitar with it, though?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Laurent I have finished some samples of quilted sapele with the WB shellac using the same process as KTM-9
I looks awesome and seems plenty durable.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Cool Bob, I'll give it a try then!

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I've french polished some necks with the Target WB shellac. It handles and works just like regular shellac. The reason i used it on my floor was that I had a bottle that was over a year old, and not trusting anything that old, I poured it on the floor(OSB) and spread it around. Looks great, wears well <bg>

I've not built it up and tried buffing it, but I would have to expect it to do so nicely, also.

Mario, can I assume that the WB shellac is harder and much more durable
than alcohol-based shellac? I can't imagine coatng a floor with regular
shellac, it would wear pretty fast.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Don't want to hijack this great thread but i have a question. can i buy WB shellac in any paint store or hardware store or do i have to order it from LMI or STEW/MAC ?

Serge you can get Target Coatings products in Canada from: http://www.woodessence.com/Targetdefault.html

I used to use the old Target PSL...and had the same problem on the neck as Mattia mentioned above. One way to go is spray the body with KTM-9 or Target USL and use a wipe on finish for the neck.

Thanks Anthony !

For those interested Rolfe Gerhardt wrote a small article on TC finishes, he's
a mandolin maker and uses the 7100 varnish as top coat. He mentions the
problems Anthony had with the PSL and it seems resolved with newer
products.
Rolfe
Gerhardt

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I'm interested in this question of whether WB shellac could be tougher than regular shellac. I can't imagine how it could be any tougher unless they've added other resins to it, possibly other natural resins, or synthetic resins. But if it's just shellac, it's just shellac, once the solvent(s) and carrier(s) have evaporated. Or have they figured out some way to make it cross-link??? Seems unlikely... but I'm not a chemist.

BTW, shellac was a common finish on wood floors for many many years before synthetic resins were developed. In my very limited experience observing it on steel string guitars, though, it seems to get scratched by errant flatpicks very easily. If a customer wants a finish that's going to look relatively scratch-free for any number of years (or if you just want to be able to get a guitar out of your shop and into the customers hands scratch-free), it seems to me that shellac, nitro, and probably any WB finish are all ruled out.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

IMHO the hardness of shellac depends on the cut used for application. Too
thick a cut and the alcohol takes forever to evaporate -and probably gets
trapped in the shellac if the finish is relatively thick-, especially with multiple
coats, hence a softer shellac prone to marks, scratches etc for a long, long
time. If applied in much thinner cuts (and many more coats…) the shellac
dries as hard as anything can be. Maybe the water vehicle for shellac
evaporates more completely than alcohol? Just a guess…
Some finishers also say that high quality 200 proof alcohol, or even better
pure grain alcohol, evaporates faster and more completely than hardware-
store denatured alcohol.laurent38761.5065046296

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Actually I talked to him at the last ASIA meeting and he is now using Target EM8000, a waterborne conversion varnish.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

[QUOTE=laurent] IMHO the hardness of shellac depends on the cut used for application. Too
thick a cut and the alcohol takes forever to evaporate -and probably gets
trapped in the shellac if the finish is relatively thick-, especially with multiple
coats, hence a softer shellac prone to marks, scratches etc for a long, long
time. If applied in much thinner cuts (and many more coats…) the shellac
dries as hard as anything can be. Maybe the water vehicle for shellac
evaporates more completely than alcohol? Just a guess…
Some finishers also say that high quality 200 proof alcohol, or even better
pure grain alcohol, evaporates faster and more completely than hardware-
store denatured alcohol.[/QUOTE]

VERY interesting, Laurent. I would sure like to know if the experience of those who've done a lot of finishing with shellac, whether by french polishing or spraying on a waterborne product or whatever, has shown that shellac can, if done right, be "as hard as anything can be". Can anyone out there chime in and corroborate this? Has anyone seen any steel string guitars finished with shellac that are not easily* scratched by a flatpick?

*I realize "easily" is a relative term. As a reference, I would rate nitro finishes as fairly easily scratched. Polyurethane finishes, in general, are not easily scratched, and (from what I understand - I don't have personal experience with this) polyester finishes are tough as nails.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, I've seen Martins from the '20 with their original shellac finish almost
immaculate and very hard. except for the thumb mark above the 1st fret on
the neck. Shellac does not flake off like laquer does. I understand that it is
much less chemically resistant than laquer or varnish. Depending on the
acidity of one's sweat a shellac finish can last forever, or a few months…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Well, this is all very interesting and certainly makes me think about using waterborne shellac. I hope we keep hearing from others about they're experience with it.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/