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I don't know, might just be something i read or heard somewhere ... i know that spruce(epicea family; rubra, alba, glauca) is among the favorites for top plates and bracing but i'm curious and would like to know if any of the north american pines (pinus family; white, red and jack pine) are used in lutherie. i saw a knotty pine guitar lately, was gorgeous but want to avoid any knots so which of these pines could be used or be recommended for bracing if any ?

Sorry for the lenghty question, i just want to demystefy that question since i seem to have access to pine more easily than spruce.

TIA

Serge

I think Bob Benedetto built his construction grade guitar with a pine top if memory serves me. So clearly it can be done.

But I guess the larger question is why? Spruce is pretty cheap why not just go with the tried and true.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I think I read a story once where Taylor built a guitar out of wood from a pallet for the back and sides, and resawed a 2x4 for the top. Apparently the guitar was reported to sound really good. I don't think you will find many people using pine, but what the heck, if that's all you have, build it and let us all know how it turns out. If Ovation can use a fiberglass bowl, and Martin can get a good sound with laminated plywood covered with a computer generated picture, I don't see why you can't succeed.

Good luck!

John

Thanks Brock, i was asking that because i do have a lot of seasoned pine on hand and used it on my first build as bracing which was ok then with a plywood soundbox and it felt ok to use it also for learning the skills.

For my second and third build, made with Lutz spruce tops and EIR B & S , i am more hesitant, i guess i have unjustified prejudice towards pines because of the knots. Is this just a misconception that pine bracing won't be as good as spruce ? Will pine affect the sound or resonnance ?

I use pine all the time! In fact most of the tables and benches in my shop are made out of pine!

Never tryed a guitar though

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Thanks John, i must admit that my first soundbox has volume even though made out of oak ply so i guess that sound has to do more with the quality of the joints and sealing the whole box really well rather than the choice of resinous used for bracing or top wood .

What are your thoughts on that ?

Or maybe i should have asked is pine bracing ok and will it sound very different than a guitar braced with spruce?

Serge,

I don't know a lot about pine, but when I built my first guitar, I know my braces were much bigger (more mass)than they needed to be, and that extra mass definitly cut down on volume. How much heavier is pine than spruce? I would cut some braces of pine and spruce and then do some tests to see how strong they are, and how much of a difference in mass there is. Let us know what you find out.

John

I will probably do a comparison as you mention, i have a bit of spruce that Alain Desforges gave me when i visited him . i'll probably buy a scale and also test the stifness of each and note the results that i'll find.

I'll also try to build eqally on the 2 guitars and try to see the difference soundwise.

Thanks John

Oregon Pine (Douglas Fir) is used for Soundboards a bit.

Hi Russ, could it be a possibility that any coniferous is good for bracing, as long as the grain runs straight and has no knots in it ?

Serge

Let me first say I am no expert on all the tree species, the drawback I could see with this is most of the coniferous trees grow at a very fast rate, which would mean the annual rings would be widely spaced, and thus any brace wood made from them could potentially lack stiffness, if you look at most of the bracing woods used they are light but stiff, so if you had a species that was both light and stiff I guess it would work.

Russ

Thanks Russ, that answers my question, light and stiff, simple as that, i got some pine with fair stiffness and is light so i should be all right!

Serge

I know that Martin tried it on a few protos but it never made it to production. Though the other conifers have been used pine is a softer wood. One never know till one does
john hall

HI Serge

As John said the real test is using it, but I would add if this is for your first instrument you may be better to get some good quality brace stock from someone, that way you will have something to compare with, when you try your pine. I appreciate you have a lot to spend money on when you start out, but you Shane at Highmontain or many of the other vendors will probably be able to provide you with some inexpensive brace stock. That way you can compare it to your pine and see if the properties are similiar.

Just a thought

Russ

Thanks John and Russ i guess it would be wiser to make a few stiffness tests and weight comparison before comparing on finished guitars huh! Since i do have a bit of spruce from Shane, i think i'll check more thoroughly the properties of each kind before shaping and glueing !

You guys are great!

Serge

I imagine Southern Yellow Pine might be usable for backs and sides.
Pretty hard wood, about the same density as oak and slightly less than
maple.

I think some quartered pine would be fine for bracing. Depends on weight, stiffness, and lack of knots/defects. The unknown is the method of drying and stability over time.

I'm not sure about using it for tops.
James Burkett38760.4087847222

Why would anyone even consider using wood with knots in it?????????? All trees have knots, but you look for wood that is clear of knots, straight-grained, and show medullary lines. You CAN get pine like that, but it's rare to find any that has tight grain as Russell has stated. Why even ask the question, unless you have some perfect looking pine around and are thinking of using it???? If so, then just try it and see what happens.
People use specific species because of the inherent engineering properties of those species. There are reasons whey the spruces, sedar, redwood etc. are used in lutherie with great acceptance.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Got the message Don, that part of the knots was already clear in my mind, but as i stated earlier, i felt i had prejudice against pine maybe because i felt it was cheap stuff when compared to spruce and i guess i was just looking for the community's approuval to go with it and if not, i would have just thrown my stupid pine away. Bruce said the other day that there was no stupid question, IMHO, i might have chosen a stupid way to ask it!

Not so.....but if you had said, "I have this piece of pine that looks a lot like spruce, it seems stiff enough to use for a top and it's clear of defects. Would you try it?" I would have said "Sure, why not?" But I guess you threw me when you said "knots..." so I just figured, "why on earth would someone consider using a piece of wood with knots in it for a top?!"
NOW....here's a noteworthy thing. The very first top I made, was from what I believed to be a piece of pine shelving from Home Depot. It was tight grained, had nice silk on it, plenty wide, and so I bought it, took it home, resawed it, and edge-joined it. I would have used it except that I sanded it too thin. So....YES I would have used a piece of pine for a top. It would have been a good experiment, even if it sounded like garbage. So if you have such a piece...give it a shot. What have you to lose? The first several guitars are all experimental anyway, regardless of what plan you're using. I say go for it, if it is a good enough piece of wood.Don Williams38760.8519444444

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

There are alot of varieties of Pine, some might work others may not, down here in Texas we have the Loplolly Pine (don't have a clue what the official name is) Used alot in telephone pole construction. This pine has a tight grain and large in size with very little knot problems from the trunk pretty high on the tree. However, the resin is really high especially around or near the heart.

Thanks Don, if i wanted to experiment on a pine top, it would have been done already on # 1 on which i experimented a lot(oak & cedar ply and pine bracing with maple laminated neck).It did not bother me to use all that stuff then, i knew i was going to make every single mistake on it!

But for # 2 and 3 that i'm about to build for loved ones, i bought some nice Lutz spruce tops from Shane which i'm sure will be great looking and have plenty of stiffness and i'll take the time necessary to build 10 times better. So the experimenting that's left to do for me is to compare pine bracing vs spruce bracing and try to see a noticeable difference. Sorry for the confusion my questions might have raised as your input is always valued and appreciated!

Regards

Serge

Ahh! For Loved Ones.....well in that case...go for the good stuff. I built a guitar for my dad with some really nice Sitka and Southeast Asian Rosewood from LMI. It's a gorgeous instrument. Too bad he doesn't play....

So what do you have planned for these guitars? Tops? Back and sides? Inquiring minds want to know!Don Williams38760.8632407407

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hi again Don, as you read, i'll use Lutz spruce for tops and East Indian Rosewood Backs & Sides, Alain Desforges gave me a nice piece of ebony for the bridges and i probably have enough spruce for the bracing of both guitars.

for the necks, i'm still unsure of what i'll use, i have some black ash and purple heart on hand, oak and maple, i might go for laminations or wait untill the credit card lowers and buy some mahogany later. Supposedly, Mahog is easier to work with? For the rosettes and binding, i was visualizing something with purple heart but that can change since purple heart is tough on my tiny table saw .