Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm currently on the verge of ordering a new Dell. My homebrew PC, after just under 3 years of loyal service, seems dead.

See, a power surge had fried my power supply a while back, replaced it, occasionally the PC would 'beep' and freeze up for no reason, requiring a hard reboot, but after doing that twice or so, it would run for 30-40 days (I rarely if ever shut it down unless I have to). Then I got back from Christmas break, and it wouldn't boot. Wasn't seeing one of the SATA harddisks. Unplugged it, it worked again. Week later I plugged in the second drive again, worked again, copied the data off, then yes/no worked for a few days, now back on 'No'. It's also progressively gotten worse, seizing up (gradual, slow crashing this time, program by program, instead of the unnaounced 'beep' and everything freezing solid within seconds), needing a reboot everyday.

Then, this morning, after I'd managed to open the OLF and read 2 emails, it did that thing we all dread: random reboot. Just...rebooted itself. And then told me some files were corrupt. Joy of joys, I've misplaced my Win2K boot CD (meh) but my neighbour/landlord's machine (which I put together for him) has an XP cd. So I put the drive in, backed up my email (only data on the system drive I care about), put it back in my machine, tried to boot for fun, no luck. Even less luck. Not even an error message, just a blank screen after successfully detecting all the mem and drives. So I try booting off the CD-ROM drive. Boots, freezes 30 seconds into setup. Hard reboot needed. Try again with the other two optical drives (I'm weird, OK, I have 3 CD/DVD drives). Same exact thing. Tried with an old version of Win98 I have sitting around. Crashes.

So. I've got 24,000 words to translate by Friday that require specific software and a dongle that won't run on my girlfriend's PC (lacks a parallel port), I've got a machine that won't even boot using an installation CD that's flawless, not a scratch on it ANYWHERE, or either of the others. It's not the harddisk (got data off that fine set as a slave drive), last I checked the memory it was all fine, the PSU seems ok (although occasionally I get errors because the 5volt power lines drop a little below allowed spec), I run update bi-weekly, virus scans weekly, virus updates daily, so that ain't it, and my symptoms could be anything from: bad memory (tests fine though), bad motherboard (likely, but weird progression), bad harddisks (but they work great in other machines), bad PSU, bad processor. And while I know how to put a PC together, I don't care to. Not that much fun. Not that much cheaper. No warrantee other than parts.

And then there's dell, who's doing free double memory and free shipping until Tuesday, and tempting me with large, pretty new TFT screens.

Bah, computers. Needed to vent.

I had similar problems recently and finally gave up myself. I'm still not positive that it wasn't Norton's automatic update for Internet Security that was corrupting the boot files. My computer was also a 5 year old home brew. I thought of Dell but Circuit City had an internet special on a loaded Compaq Presario. Do yourself a favor Mattia, bite the bullet and get a new one.

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

[QUOTE=Don A] I had similar problems recently and finally gave up myself. I'm still not positive that it wasn't Norton's automatic update for Internet Security that was corrupting the boot files. My computer was also a 5 year old home brew. I thought of Dell but Circuit City had an internet special on a loaded Compaq Presario. Do yourself a favor Mattia, bite the bullet and get a new one. [/QUOTE]

I really think I will, yeah. It's annoying, because this PC did a great job, flawless, maybe 1 crash in over 2 years, then one little thing, and downhill from there. Terribly, terribly frustrating.

I'm checking my 'local' PC shops tomorrow, I think (there's a street with about 6 of 'em) to see if they can beat the Dell price, but for the specs, with the special offer bits, it's going to be tough, if not impossible. I was planning on spending a third of this big project's payment on tonewood, and saving the rest; I guess I'll have to spend the other 2/3 on a PC. At least I can deduct the VAT as a business expense (part of it, anyway...)

These things always happen at the worst possible time. A week later, and this would've merely been 'annoying'.

... but have you checked/replaced the CMOS battery on the Mo-board? If not, you might give that a try.

D..

_________________
D..

My wife and I just bought 2 new Dell laptops in the last 2 weeks. They are great. Bite the bullet! I am finally computerizing my client list! (800+ clients, 2100+ guitars in the last 2 years) This will take weeks
Good luck, Evan

_________________
http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

[QUOTE=Dennis E.] ... but have you checked/replaced the CMOS battery on the Mo-board? If not, you might give that a try.

D..[/QUOTE]

No, but I don't see how the CMOS battery would be causing this kind of issue. Isn't that largely there to keep system time updated? BIOS checks out fine, and system date/time work. It simply won't even boot off of a bootable installation CD, and doesn't give me any meaningful errors (or meaningless ones).

Mostly, I don't feel I can trust this machine any more, and given that what I earn, I earn translating, I need something reliable. Mattia Valente38760.8070138889

It's a bit more than a clock battery. It also maintains the BIOS settings. If the battery is failing, it can cause all kinds of weird and intermittent problems.

Many Windows operating system/motherboard combinations are about as stable as a ten-story house of cards stacked behind a flatulent elephant. It doesn't take much to make the whole thing come crashing down.

D..

_________________
D..

I guess it's contageous. Mine is going crazy too. For no reason, about twice a day, it just locks up and I have to reboot. It happened yesterday while posting to this board, my post was done except for my signature and the post reply button and it chose that time to lock up.

Al

[QUOTE=Dennis E.] It's a bit more than a clock battery. It also maintains the BIOS settings. If the battery is failing, it can cause all kinds of weird and intermittent problems.

Many Windows operating system/motherboard combinations are about as stable as a ten-story house of cards stacked behind a flatulent elephant. It doesn't take much to make the whole thing come crashing down.

D..

[/QUOTE]

Ah, right. But my bios settings are where I left them, remain changed when I change them, so I'm guessing that ain't it. It also gets through the 'bios' bits fine, near as I can tell...

Mattia,

Not sure if this will help but you said something that piqued my interest. Your 5-volt supply should, under no circumstances drop below "spec". It is regulated, NOT proportional to your supply voltage. If it is dropping below 5-volts it could either be too small (amp draw pulls down the voltage because the regulation is partially defeated) or you may have another bad power supply. Since they're cheap, it may be worth checking before you dump the system. For instance, a P-3 power supply will fit in a P-4 case very nicely and if the current is close it may work, after a fashion, for a while.

Hope this helps, Steve

Mattia,
Not a computer wiz like some of you.....I bought a nice Dell about 8 months ago. I love it! Got a real nice set up for about $1000.00. This came with extended warranty, major antivirus,digital flat screen, etc., etc., etc. I and the family are very happy with it. I couldn't find a better deal anywhere. The old computer I had was built for me from a local shop. was great until it got highjacked! What the???????? Yes highjacked. The people who built it couldn't even repair it correctly! I gave up after three attempts and "bit the bullet!" as Evan states! Could not be happier. For general, multimedia use... the best deals around! Sounds like you have the highjack problem I had...same symtoms! Good Luck with your choice!
MarkMark Laura38760.8649074074

Steve: I'll be replacing both PSU and motherboard at a later date, but for now, I'm simply ordered a new Dell; I don't have the time to mess with this level of aggravation, and worst-case scenario, this will make a very nice replacement system for my parents. Even when the power supply is behaving (there's an acceptable range for all PSU voltage. The BIOS and a separate program indicate what current voltage for each of the types of power supply is, and goes 'red' if it drops below; if its out (not frequently), it's out by about .03 volts, MAX).

I'll fix this system, but it's gotten to the point where I can't trust it.

Mark: given my paranoid security measures, I doubt it was a hijack/exploit, but I firmly suspect it's a weird hardware bug. I just look at it this way: I can deduct the VAT because it's half-work machine (half the VAT, anyway), and a job the size of the one I'm doing now would've paid for 2.5 new Dells. ie, what I earn working the rest of this week will pay for the PC.

I had a similar problem last week. I got the dreaded blue screen and a system 32\drivers\pci.sys error. Thing wouldn't reboot to save my life! After trouble shooting for a couple of days I finally took it to a guy who simply unhooked my DVD/cd player and removed the memory. The thing booted right up! The only thing he thinks it could be is a power supply issue. Now I am scared to hook up the dvd/cd player again for fear it will happen again.

Really feel the computer pain out there. I am lucky to have some knowledge and some intuitive experience with computers. I had an intermittent problem on one computer and knew that tracking it down would be almost impossible or very expensive if I had someone else try.

For $79 I put in a new motherboard. Problem solved. If I had taken it to a shop they would STILL be trying to figure it out - for hundreds of dollars.

On another computer it kept rebooting and I somehow figured it was a heat problem - very common for rebooting issues and AMD chips - installed a case fan and problem solved.

Point is that there are a lot of problems that can be solved but it is no easy task to figure it out without a LOT of computer experience. A new computer will always solve the problem and can sometimes be the quickest though a little more expensive.

To me the most important point of the thread is that you have to feel secure with yout set-up or the stress will create even more problems.

Mattia, on your old computer perhaps a new MB would be a great inexpensive upgrade? Installing one can also be a great learning experience.

Hope that helps,

Larry

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

Then of course you could just buy a Mac and not have to deal with these
issues.

[QUOTE=csullivan] Then of course you could just buy a Mac and not have to deal with these
issues.[/QUOTE]

...or buy a Dell, or any other PC with an equivalent service package, and still pay less for the power you get (entertaining to me: the admission that the dual core centrino-based mac laptops are 4x faster than the old G4s, essentially admitting that the old laptops were half as fast as the cheapest Centrino-based PC laptop).

That Macs are more stable/have better hardware is patent mythology (given the level of problems I've seen among my many mac-owning friends); they've got a slightly more stable OS, but they do break, and you can't service them yourself. You can build a cheap, cheap PC with cheap parts that'll be more flaky, but use quality hardware, and you're golden (I mean, Mac portables? Made by Asus, same as many, many PC portables). Their strength lies in the fact they have very few hardware combinations, so its easier to fine-tune the software end of things. Hardware, however, fails when it feels like it, no matter who builds the machine.

I'd seriously consider a mac portable or a mac mini if I didn't need the drive space/case space, but I honestly don't find any of their desktops even remotely attractive, which is a problem, since the only justification for the significantly higher hardware price tag seems to be design. And I can't use some of the hardware and software I need to use with 'em (translation tool, and Line6's Guitar Port)Mattia Valente38762.1757291667

[QUOTE=LarryH] For $79 I put in a new motherboard. Problem solved. If I had taken it to a shop they would STILL be trying to figure it out - for hundreds of dollars.

On another computer it kept rebooting and I somehow figured it was a heat problem - very common for rebooting issues and AMD chips - installed a case fan and problem solved.

Point is that there are a lot of problems that can be solved but it is no easy task to figure it out without a LOT of computer experience. A new computer will always solve the problem and can sometimes be the quickest though a little more expensive.

To me the most important point of the thread is that you have to feel secure with yout set-up or the stress will create even more problems.

Mattia, on your old computer perhaps a new MB would be a great inexpensive upgrade? Installing one can also be a great learning experience.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm fairly experienced with these machines; the old box is one I put together myself from the ground up (bought all the parts, assembled it), and it ran flawlessly for a good 2.5 years. I first suspected the motherboard as the culprit, but the symptoms make me think it's either that, maybe the memory, maybe the power supply, and it might be the processor. I'll start with a MoBo upgrade and moving it to a new case (I'll give this one to my parents if I get it fixed, but the SoHo case its in is too huge for them) which will sort power supply and motherboard issues, and if it's still flaky, give it some new memory.

Mostly, I have very limited free time, I use my PC to earn money (translation), and in a good week, the week's earning will pay for a new machine (as they are doing this week, and I can write off about 2/3ds of the sales tax as a business expense; could write off the PC as business expense, but that requires far more paperwork than I'm willing to do). And what free time I have, I'd rather spend building guitars. I mostly don't have the time to mess around with this one and get it up and running, because I need to work.

Besides, I ordered and paid for the new Dell yesterday, and I'm not regretting it one bit

It also comes with a nice, shiny new 19" flatscreen monitor, more power, more disk space (after I move one of the drives over) and 3 year hardware coverage. And the price, compared to buying the same parts and putting it together myself, is only about 100-200 bucks over spec (thanks to the 'free double memory'and 'free shipping' offers). I used to have fun building PCs and the like, but now I just want them to work. Do the job. And not cost too much.Mattia Valente38762.1779282407

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] [QUOTE=LarryH]

Mattia, on your old computer perhaps a new MB would be a great inexpensive upgrade? Installing one can also be a great learning experience.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm fairly experienced with these machines;

I used to have fun building PCs and the like, but now I just want them to work. Do the job. And not cost too much.[/QUOTE]

Mattia, sorry for the patronizing tone, not sure why I assumed you had less computer experience than you obviously do and hopefully my post will help someone less experienced. It seems you have the situation well in hand and I agree wholeheartedly with your last point.

Larry

_________________
Thank You and Best To All

I have been building and upgrading computers for myself and friends for about 10 years now. Over that time I've run into some of the same problems you described, and more often than not it was a result of cheap memory or a cheap motherboard. Sometimes the motherboard is damaged during installation, or it may have problems from the factory that don't show up until a few months later. Memory can be the same way - it might check out fine under the memory tester but will fail in certain conditions.

The advantage in building your own computer is that you can choose the best parts and create a more stable and powerful machine than the retailers offer. I've found that if you research each part and buy proven, stable parts you will usually not have these types of problems.

As for Dell - I wouldn't consider them the perfect solution to your reliability problems. I had a Dell 17" LCD at my office that died on me, and a week later the replacement they sent also died! Then I had a hard drive in a 4 month old PC die on me - extra convenient considering it was in a RAID configuration and all my data was lost! Just a word of warning :)

[QUOTE=ksudar] The advantage in building your own computer is that you can choose the best parts and create a more stable and powerful machine than the retailers offer. I've found that if you research each part and buy proven, stable parts you will usually not have these types of problems.[/quote]

In theory, yes, but not at a much better price, and you lack the warrantee on the system as a whole. This is exactly what I did for the machine that's currently being all, y'know, dead; high-end parts, quality RAM, good harddisks, good vid card, good PSU, good MoBo. And it ran perfectly, 2.5 years straight. Not a hitch. Maybe one crash, ever, and it ran 24/7.

[quote]
As for Dell - I wouldn't consider them the perfect solution to your reliability problems. I had a Dell 17" LCD at my office that died on me, and a week later the replacement they sent also died! Then I had a hard drive in a 4 month old PC die on me - extra convenient considering it was in a RAID configuration and all my data was lost! Just a word of warning :)[/QUOTE]

Well, yeah, data security is only achieved via backup! I've only had good experiences with Dell (the PC before this one was a Dell I got cheap via my university, and I've got several friends that are very happy with their Dells), and mostly, I like the fact they offer a three year warrantee on all the hardware, which I can't get at the same price from any vendor I 'just' buy parts from. And their monitors (the higher end ones) have a very good rep, and if it breaks, well, they'll replace it! Not my problem. Hardware is hardware. Harddisks fail. Dell's likely not using the highest-end of motherboards, but the memory and harddisks are much the same as on any other machine, even one you build yourself, unless you're spending out hugely on 'matched' chips with low CL's and similar stuff that has more to do with marketing to the modder/gamer crowd than real-world performance.

I don't pretend that any PC is perfectly reliable, but I don't want to have to be the one messing around and trying to figure out which part is the culprit if it does fail; I'd rather spend that time building guitars. Also, it takes me a good few weeks to read up on all the 'right' hardware if I'm assembling a system, because I don't keep abreast of new developments in hardware country (other than audio interfaces, really. And some software) if I'm not actively in the market for a new machine.

[QUOTE=LarryH] [QUOTE=Mattia Valente] [QUOTE=LarryH]

Mattia, on your old computer perhaps a new MB would be a great inexpensive upgrade? Installing one can also be a great learning experience.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm fairly experienced with these machines;

I used to have fun building PCs and the like, but now I just want them to work. Do the job. And not cost too much.[/QUOTE]

Mattia, sorry for the patronizing tone, not sure why I assumed you had less computer experience than you obviously do and hopefully my post will help someone less experienced. It seems you have the situation well in hand and I agree wholeheartedly with your last point.

Larry[/QUOTE]

Hey, none taken! The advice is good, but I just ain't in the mood. I'm just merrily awaiting delivery of my new, powerful PC. It's probably not the cheapest choice, but it's the best choice for me, right now, because the time it would take me to fix the darn thing (and it would have to happen fast) is more valuable to me than the cost of a new machine. Cost-benefit analysis and all that.

Right, anyway, guitars, eh? They're great, aren't they?

Mattia

Mattia, I had similar problems, turned out to be a faulty stick of RAM.

Started out just freezing after a while, no specific program, just up and hang. Re-boot and twas fine for a bit and then hang again after a while. I chased that problem around for some time, even reformatting and trying different OS, changing out the graphics card etc. Nothing would help, the problem just got progressively worse until it reached the point were the PC would not boot up at all. It would cycle thru and tell you that it had found all the drives and memory and then just restart before the OS splash.

I started pulling sticks and rebooting, got to the last 1 of 4 sticks (of course) and what do you know, stable as a rock, just short a stick of SDRAM. I gave that PC to my kids about 2 or 3 years ago as it done broke my heart , bloody thing is still chugging along without a problem (of course).

In my opinion, PC's are the only valid reason a man has to keep a load weapon in the house

Cheers Kim

I been following this thread and I've noticed that there is appently a correlation between luthery and computer design/repair!

I think I'm on to something. I, with my my limited experience, am going to publish the the first book covering luthery AND computer repair! I'm thinking maybe, "PC Luthery," for a title?

Or maybe, "Strings and RAM, a Primer" On the other hand, people like titles that are a little oblique, "Spruce & Silicon, a Love Story." Yeh, I like that one.

Mattia, Good luck with the Dell. My laptop is Dell and it has been through hell and back and has come up shining. Others, as you can tell, aren't too impressed.   Good luck!

Steve