Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello fellow OLFer's

I am about to make an expensive commitment one way or the other on a sander and I really need some advice and your understanding that I must make my position clear, so please excuse the length of this post.

I know that there are probably as many different answers to the questions I am about to put to you as there are users and machines combined. But I would really like to find the general consensus on this topic here on the OLF so here we go.

Which of the following machines would you consider TODAY, offers the best over-all investment one could make when fitting out a moderately equipped guitar makers workshop FOR THE LONG TERM?

The first option would seem to be the BYO's and these are very attractive to me. However, these machines do appear to require the acceptance of some compromise at least in the power feed department. And I have sensed a "grass is greener" vibe coming from some who use this type of machine.

Some have even suggested that given the dollars and time they have spent in trial and error refining their BYO, it would have been cheaper in the long run for them to have just bought a commercial machine to start with a be done with it.

Also, whilst the parts to make a BYO are indeed cheap and commonly available on ebay in the USA, eg: gear motors, commercial machine drums etc, this is not the case here in Australia, so I would consider, at a rough guess, the over all cost of this option in Australia, would be at least 40% or more than it would cost in the USA.

The next option is the good old Performax 16/32. These can be had here for around $1350.00au with a roller base thrown in. It would seem from feedback that these machines are a good reliable workhorse. The upgrade to this machine is of course the 22/44 @ $1800.00au with a base. Is the extra 6" of drum worth the extra $450.00au?? If you have a 16/32 now, do you wish you had paid out the extra for a 22/44? If you have a 22/44 do you now think it was overkill and wished you had saved your money?

Next we have the dual drum thicknessing sander, a 25" unit retails here from around $2400.00au, twice the drums at twice the price of the 16/32, but is it really twice as good and justifiably better than a 22/44.

Lastly, starting at a whopping $4500.00au for the entry level machine, we have the wide belt, but I could simply never justify spending that much on a one operation machine so I will not even consider it.

Is money an object? Yes of course. But then it is also objectionable to find out you under spent and are now stuck with a POS that will not do the job for which it was purchased. Is space an issue, no not really cause I have a big kick @#$ shed in the backyard. Is power supply an issue? No, the big kick @#$ shed has it's own 3ph 440v supply split to 2 separate 15amp circuits.

So given the benefit of your own hind site, if forced to make this decision today, in which direction would you head?

I thank you all for your patience and look forward to your valued input.

Cheers All.

Kim

Kim,

I haven't bought anything yet but I've been going through the same debate in my head. I think I finally settled on buying the Woodtek sander shown here:

Woodtek

It's listed in the OLF online resources. I'm just a hobby builder who would like to complete 3-5 guitars a year. This sander has dual drums and should be able to handle the relatively small volume I'll be building every year. I'm guessing it should last as long as I'll be building guitars, and at $1,195, it's pretty affordable.

Good luck!

John

Kim, I throw a little experience your way. I had a 16-32. I didn't care for it too much. The design of the cantered head made it flex a bit which made for uneven sanding. Especially when you put a thicker than usual board through and took too much material off. I know that light passes are supposed to be the norm on sanders, but let's face it, we only have a certain amount of breaths on this rock so it's pretty natural to take too big of bites on each pass.
From there I went to the General dual drum 25". The first one I bought had the feed rollers welded on crooked so you couldn't get consistant pressure. Then I found out that one of the drum mounts was slightly (.028") lower than the others. Which made for uneven sanding. So I returned it. The guy at the store wanted me to try another one and I told him as long as he would stand behind it, I'd try another (hoping I just got a machine that was made at 3:00 p.m. on a Friday). This one had be ok, just ok. It's pretty tempromental and now one of the bearings is going on one of the drums. I know others on the forum have the same machine and love it, but I'm not crazy about it at all.
If I had it to do over again, and I probably will before long, I'd get the smaller wide belt that has an open end. So my advice to you is to save your pennies and go that route.

Kim, I agree with Paul. I have the same machine as he does. There are adjustments all over mine to to get it running and thicknessing well but it is still a "finishing sanding", yet we all use them as "thickness sander". I think that I will eventually be upgrading to a wide belt "thickness sander". The belt stays cool and you get a LOT longer belt life than on drum sanders. A couple of years ago these machines started at about $8,000. THey are starting to become affordable and will almost (not quite but almost) replace my planer!

Good luck in your decision.

Shane

_________________
Canada

Shane hit the nail on the head. The drum sanders are finishing sanders at best.
For thicknessing I use a Wagner Safety Planer and a Dewalt Orbital Sander. I do have a Ryobi 16-32 but I can get quicker results with the Wagner and Dewalt.

Tom, the Wagner is usable on figured woods as well? Like flamed koa or
maple, or some rosewoods? it doesn't tear out the wood with the different
grain directions?laurent38761.4981944444

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

larkim,
The Performax machines you are looking at are hobby machines. They do
their job but they require patience and a little work to get them to work
well for you. I had the Performax 22-44 and it was OK. It took me a few
hours to sand the top/back/sides down to thickness - I just found I had
to take very light cuts. The paper would load with dust and I was always
having to clean it off with a rubber cleaner.   However, it is vastly superior
to no drum sander at all.

I was all set to get a Grizzly wide-belt when I discovered Woodmaster
DrumSanders. These sanders sell for a little over $2000 US. They have
been reviewed extensively by a lot of woodworkers and most agree they
are in an entirely different league than the Performax, Grizzly, General,
Woodteck, etc.. drum sanders.

In my opinion, they are the ideal machine for the luthier. I can sand a
top/back/sides down in a couple minutes. Absolutely no comparison
between this macine and the Performax 22-44.

There are only two things that make this not as versatile as a wide-belt
sander as it is comparable in just about every other way. The sanding
surface is smaller than a wide-belt and if you are sanding HIGHLY
resinous woods, the drum will load with dust. THe first wood I have ever
had trouble with is chakte-viga (think Pernambuco). I was making some
binding and just gums up the entire drum every pass. However, it also
gummed up my bandsaw blade EVERY pass as well - which meant, I had
to clean and apply olive oil to the blade EVERY pass - it was an absolute
devil to work with. This was the first time I ever needed to clean the
drum with a cleaner - most of the time the dust collection is so good you
don't need to ever clean. A wide-belt would have been useful for this
stuff as it was extremely difficult to work with; however, this wood would
have also gummed up a wide-belt but not as quickly.

The other advantage of the wide-belt is that you can take a bigger "cut".
However, the Woodmaster can take 1/16" of most woods with no trouble
at all. It is truly an amazing machine.

I think the Woodmaster fills the gap between typical drum sanders and
wide-belts very well. There will be a few times when you might wish you
had the wide-belt but most of the time you will realize no time saving at
all over the Wood master - it really is this good.

This was one of the best tools I have ever bought and I recommend
seeing one in action. After getting this machine, I see no NEED to ever
get a wide-belt - if I were building 30 guitars a year, I might save an hour
of labor if I had a wide-belt. Quite honestly, this is the machine most of
us have been looking for.

For those that are tooling up, I also recommend MiniMax jointer/planer
and the Grizzly 24" bandsaw. I have found these to be invaluable tools
for me.

Good luck, larkimSimonF38761.5081134259

Laurent, With a sharp Wagener Planer it has worked fine on figured woods. I clean everything up with the Random Orbital Sander and definitely pay attention to grain.Tom Dowey38761.5123263889

I agree with Paul, personally I would go with an 18" Delta X5 or the Crafstman 18 drum sander. From my experience those work great for under $1000

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I've got to agree with Tom, I find that a well sharpened safeT planer works on any wood, if care is taken not to take too big a bite with it and a good table, fence and hold-down are used. I then use a sanding disc in the same drill press to get to near final thickness then the deWalt ROS to finish off. I only ever used the 16-32 for the final stage and then only rarely. I've just sold my 16-32 as it was taking up valuable shop space and wasn't earning it's living. For the hobby builder, the bigger drum and belt sanders are an investment too far in my opinion. Think of the wood you can get instead!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I have the Woodmaster - it truly is a remarkable machine - probably the top-end of the drumsander category. VERY well built, and great tech support.

Woodmaster Drum Sander

-MarkMark Tripp38761.5339930556

_________________
Pullman, WA

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

trippguitars.com
OR
Find me on Facebook

Chiming in with my .02 worth.

I guess it is easiest to tell you what I woudl NOT do. I would NOT BYO or buy a 16/32. I have a 16/32 and while it sort of gets the job done I mostly go see Tim M. who has a wide belt sander when I need anything serious done.

I would buy the biggest / nicest drum sander you can afford. At this point I am saving my pennies for a wide belt sander like Tim has.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

One more vote for the Woodmaster.
The only question I had after getting mine is why I didn't do it 10 years
earlier.
-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

I bought a 38" Woodmaster drum sander used for $750.00, it is an older version but works perfectly for luthiery. Built lika a tank, and very accurate. I love this machine!

Greg

_________________
Gwaltney Guitars

Kim, I think the first question you have to answer is how much and often will you be using your drum sander and what’s your price range?

I went the DYO route mainly because I like building things. Most of the DYO builders later complain about accuracy and difficulty attaching paper when they fashion their own drums out of MDF or plywood. So I went the DYO route with ordered parts from General International at the cost listed below. To that you’d need to add the cost of a belt, blast gate, plywood/lumber etc. I’ve been using it for about 2-years now and am happy with the accuracy.

[QUOTE=Chas Freeborn] One more vote for the Woodmaster.
The only question I had after getting mine is why I didn't do it 10 years
earlier.
-C[/QUOTE]

Charles I agree with that comment. When building guitars, accurate sanding to thickness is important. A quality machine is a must.

My General International has been sanding happily with one adjustment, a .035 shim under the left front of the bed. The other problem encountered in four years of use, the rep replaced a computer board which controls bed feed speed. No charge on the part.

Having used no other sander I can't compare them, but I'm happy with mine. Soon after I got it, Bruce Petros shows one off in one of the Lutherie mags, don't remember which. He changed out his rubber conveyor to a sandpaper conveyor. I haven't seen the need to do that.

Oh yean, the Woodtek appears by all numbers to be the same machine as the General only with a John Deere paint job. $500 cheaper than the General. I'd have tried one if I had found it first. The pics and specs appear identical.

I couldn't live without my General in my shop.Bruce Dickey38761.652037037

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I would love to hear a couple more reviews on the WoodmasterDrum sanders. I have been using the Performax Pro-Max which is the predecessor of the 22-44. works well as long as I make very light passes and do not get in a hurry; very time consuming. does woodmaster make a mobile base? thanks, tom harbin

If I decide to purchase a woodmaster, I may have a performax for sale!

I first heard about the Woodmaster on the "Luthiers Corner" forum from Rick
Turner. Before he went big time and bought a huge widebelt he used the
Woodmaster. Do you need more endorsement than that?

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000264#000003

If the link doesn't work go to the forum search and type in "drim
sander" (the author of the thread mis-spelled drum)


-CChas Freeborn38761.7190162037

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

I built my own, the prices down here are just stupid. I scrounged most of the parts. Only had to pay for some 2x4 framing timber and the pullys, and to get one of the pullys machined to fit the shaft. I've got less than $AU100 in it. It's very accurate.

The only real difference I can see is the lack of a powerfeed system. If I decide I want one, I'll add one. But for now I think I'll stick to the Armstrong feed system.

BTW, my 18" jet bandsaw cost $AU1800, which would you prefer?

How about those who built their own, i built mine for $250.00 CAD and i'm happy with it, i'm also curious of what Rod, BobC, Mario and others who built their own would recommend on that matter!

Kim, you also have acces to a great woodworking website in your country, woodwork forum with great homemade drum sanders, that's where i learned more about it!

Serge

Since I'm only building 3-5 guitars per year, I'm happy(for now) with my planer, and my Performax 10-20.

Al

I have the 16-32, Mainly because I Couldn't get one of the larger machines into my shop as the access is difficult, I spent a lot of time leveling it and I am very happy with it, I do use three different Grades of paper depending what I am sanding.

This said my only other experinece was with a large dual drum sander, and it was very good but a monster.

I think the 16/32 can work well, but I do like the look of the one Tim bought if you have the space budget and access.

Mine's home made, too. 22" wide, 4" drum, velcro backed sandpaper rolls, 1 1/2hp, hand fed. Very accurate, very slow, I love it. If was going to make more than 3-5 guitars a year, I'd probably buy a nice one, but this works well for me.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

[QUOTE=Tom Harbin] I would love to hear a couple more reviews on the
WoodmasterDrum sanders. [/QUOTE]

Send me an email at oxybenzone@earthlink.net with your phone number
and a good time to call. I can give you some more information about the
machine.

Simon