Official Luthiers Forum!

I just got caught up on the feedback to the post that Simon started on finishes and I wanted to get a more specific and in-depth discussion on the different methods of applying this finish. I have no experience, so please feel free to start at FP-101.

I planned to FP my latest neck and was going to do some practicing on scrap mahogany before going live. I was intending to use the bottled Zinnzer's one-step shellac FP but now after hearing Michael's opinion, I also want to compare the results to the traditional method of dissolved shellac flakes, ethyl alcohol and olive oil. Once I do this exercise, I may even do the top in FP.

I was hoping to get some suggestions as to what fillers to use to seal the wood before applying the shellac as well as technique.

I know Michael P is our resident expert on the traditional method and Alan has mentioned a more streamlined approach but I was also hoping that someone could chime in with their experience with the bottled one-step process.

Let the discussion begin...TIA

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I also think Marshall Brune is teaching a class about this real soon if you could manage to get to that....   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I french polish everything using Syhelac, Alcohol, and Walnut oil. I have tried all types of oil over the last 20 years and like walnut the best. I now use very little oil, only a drop when needed and start each session with no oil. It is faster this way but I recomend starting with more oil. The other thing I recomend is using Naptha to spirit off the oil instead of alcohol. I also always end with a glaze coat which I know some don't do. The best tutorial I've seen on French polishing is The Milburn one

Thanks a million for the great link Richard!

Serge

Brock...No question that the Brune class would answer most, if not all questions and give anyone the best head start in the quest to master FP techniques. Given the time constraints that so many of us who have day jobs, I can't afford the time to learn it that way. So I'm relegated to doing trials and errors as time permits.

Richard...thanks for the reminder on the Milburn tutorial. That sure provides a good basis for getting a good foundation on the discipline of the process.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Try Robbie's new finishing DVD (5 are up for auction right now), I took Brune's FP class with him. I'm assuming he sticks fairly close to Brune's methods. It's quite a bit simpler than other tutorials I've read.

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

A while back when I was speaking to Bob he said they were going to update the tutorial, including a section on filling with epoxy etc. He said he is also doing it much quicker now, loading heavier and longer sessions with less time in between. It is a good starting place though.

Accualy JJ I do cheat these days in two ways first I fill using Zpoxy Finishing Resign I used FFFF pumice from the time I was 15 till last year. The zpoxy is just so much less work. Second I have been using Zinnzer's Seal Coat 100% wax free finishing sealer for several years now. It is a 50% light amber and 50% blonde 3# mix straight out of the can. I cut it to 1# for the seal and 2# for boding then use 1# again at glazing.

There are a buch of differnt opinions out there about the best way to build and glaze film. I was taught and still believe that the best and hardes film is an amalgamation by repeated firm bouing and spriting off process. There therory be hind my method is that you are compacting the film with each session. The draw back to my method is it is much more time consuming The Milbune tutorial in the resource page is a very close example of my method.

One key in any of the padded processes is a good muneca. I prefer very old linen with 100% un-died wool center core but ther are a bunch of things that can be used. old white t-shirts are common but if you use this I suggest you use pinking shears to cut your squars as the edges will drop fibers.

The next critical thing in my methos or opinion is to sprit or spritz after every session after the first three. This is straight line passes with more solvent than shellac. these should be firm but not hard and in one direction with the grain one sessiond and the other dirrection wthi the grain the next. This levels as you go and compacts the film.

I like to put on 4 body sessions a day. then let the film harden over night. Again there is a lot of debate here on if this really helps harden the film. but more than any thing It is how I was taught.

If I am machine buff to high gloss I put 8-10 body sessions, if hand buff to high gloss 7-8 and if satin finished 6-8. so much to share and till you work the shellac not much really clicks. I would suggest you practice at lease 6-8 hrs before working on the guitar your firs time out with my method.

I do not like Zinnzer's FP in a bottle because the oil will be in every step of the process anh I have no control over how much. Bt the way when I can find it I use virgin Walnut oil, if I can't I use Extra Virgin Olive oil less that extra virgin has been cut with additives and may contaminate the finish.

[QUOTE=letseatpaste] Try Robbie's new finishing DVD (5 are up for auction right now), I took Brune's FP class with him. I'm assuming he sticks fairly close to Brune's methods. It's quite a bit simpler than other tutorials I've read.[/QUOTE]

Jon, I enjoyed taking the French Polishing class at the Brune workshop with you. As you mentioned, in my finishing DVD I do stick close to the method we learned with Marshall. It is a simple and quick way to get a really good French POlish finish in no time at all. You can get it as shiny as lacquer or urethane if you like.   
It seems as though finishing is a hot topic as of recent here on the forum. For those interested, my Finishing DVD covers everything from oil varnishes, waterbornes, shellac, lacquers, urethanes and French Polish. It also covers different methods for pore filling and methods for achieving the sheen you desire, be it satin or high gloss. Both sheens can be achieved by hand or machine. Before attempting a finish or new product I know you would benefit by taking a look at my finishing dvd first. Five of them are up for aution right now!       

Thanks, Michael...I was hoping you'd post on this. You just save me a bunch of time and effort!!!

I like using Zpoxy for pore filling but wasn't sure it was compatible with FP. I'll give it a try. Using the Zinnser stuff out of the can is also quite a convenience.

Sounds like the effort difference between the one-part and traditional just narrowed. I'm still going to try both methods on scrap.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I'm still going to disagree about 'compacting' the finish: I just don't see how pressure from the pad can do that when there's still solvent in it to 'stress relieve' it. At any rate, there's no way to 'prove' it one way or the other.

One advantage of walnut oil: it's a drying oil and you don't have to 'spirit off'. Leaving olive oil on the surface will keep the shellac from hardening, as it 'locks in' some of the alcohol, which is attracted to the oil. Once the walnut oil dries it's no longer an oil, and the alcohol will finish outgassing. The surface won't be as slick as it would have been had you spirited off, but you can always polish it. 'Novus' is bewtter for shellac then 'Maguires'.

In fact, these days I rarely use oil at all. It seems to give more long-term shrinkage in the film, which causes cracking, and more oil also tends to darken the finish over time.