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Hi folks, in a bit of a pickle over my latest guitar. I built it for a friend who wanted to downtune it to C standard tuning, that is C F B E G# C, and it's not staying in tune. I used a heavier gauge string set but I may have to go heavier. Right now I'm using a DR set that goes 11, 15, 19, 32, 42, 54. It's got a 25" scale length and the nut was filed to accept the bigger strings. I used Planet Waves locking tuners with a resomax tailpiece and a tusq nut. He also wanted it to have as low an action as possible, so I managed to get it quite low without buzzing which was a PITA, with the strings being a bit floppy.

So I had problems with getting it tuned and holding, and intonation was tricky. From what I've read this can be a problem with such loose tunings. I'm going to try some heavier gauge strings but other than that and dropping the pickups a bit I don't know what else to try. It wasn't something that he wanted up front when I started the build and he didn't want a baritone so this might just be an issue that isn't easily remedied. He's not a gigging musician and he understands that it's got a few things he asked for that aren't ideal for stability, but I want to get it working right for him. So if anyone has any suggestions as to what I could do to gain some stability, I'd really appreciate it.

#1 - drop the DR strings. They have a long history of tuning and intonation problems stemming from loose windings. If a customer of mine insists on using DR's I tell them to bring three sets so I may have some chance of assembling a reasonable set.

#2 - The problem will never be fully fixed anyway. The drop-tuning fad is simply placing unrealistic demands on physics. That low C would be a .085" string at ~30" length on a bass, or maybe .065" at 37". Try to get that from a 25" scale, and they'll just have to accept that it comes with compromises. You can make the string thicker, but this brings all sorts of other issues with stiffness, inharmonicity of harmonics, and intonation as you move up the board. Carry this example to extremes by imagining trying to get an A-55 from a 12" long string at 1/4" thick, and it's easier to see the route you are entering with the "thicker string for lower notes within a given length" approach will leed you. It just doesn't work, or at least not without compromises.


So my advice, first use reliable quality strings. Second, advise the player that if they want to tune that low, physics of string length/diameter/mass/pitch dictates compromises - it's really out of the technician's hands. The player themselves must accept that they will have to develop more tolerance for buzzing, inharmonicity, intonation issues, etc. When players who use these low tunings make it work, it's not because of a magic solution that cures these problems, but rather their ability to accommodate the issues with their playing and setup to sweep them under the rug.

Strings just don't work in the ideal way they may prefer them to, and you don't really have the power to change this.

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Thank you for that thorough answer David, this will help me deal with this and manage expectations. I felt like I was losing my mind trying to get this thing set up, as I've never tried running a guitar downtuned this low.

Mr. Collins is on the money!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

It's crazy, isn't it?

And that's the key point - as you said to "manage expectations" is a huge part of dealing with this. Making clear that it's at least to some extent physics beyond your control - where the string assumes properties more like bar vibrations than string vibrations - that the player has to assume some responsibility for compromises in setup and outcome.

If they're playing through a rectifier with crazy distortion, than lighter strings can actually work better, as although they'll buzz like crazy acoustically this won't come through the amp and will deliver less intonation and inharmonicity issues by lower stiffness/length ratio. If they want to play clean, then heavier strings and higher action may be better, but this may bring other intonation and inharmonicity issues with overtones that can demand custom tuning offsets with slightly flattened bass strings to spread the compromises over a reasonable range.

The key is making it clear that there is nothing in workmanship alone which can circumvent these limitations of string physics, and although it can be made to work acceptably, this involves some choices on the player's part of where to shift the compromises to minimize their effects.

And of course make sure the strings are stretched out really well. In low tunings the tuning stability of an unstretched string will have notably greater impact than in standard tunings.

I have gotten pretty good at satisfying these low-tuned clients, but will admit that it probably lies more in educating the clients and psychology than in technical details of the trade itself.

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Wow, David this is really insightful. He is playing through a heavily distorted amp, I wouldn't have thought of trying to use lighter gauge strings but that makes sense. I might have to make a new nut but that wouldn't be the end of the world. I've suggested that maybe we try not downtuning it as low as he's wanting as I'm about to build another which I said I could set up as a baritone. All I have for it is a body right now so it wouldn't be that hard to do a new layout and extend the neck. Anyways, I really appreciate your advice here this is exactly what I needed to hear. (Also reassuring that it wasn't my build quality or layout issues that's causing this.)

Just for reference regarding the string choice, here's a shot I took years back of a DR string under a scope (far from an isolated occurrence). Note the gaps in the windings - this creates major intonation problems.

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So much for Tite-fit! I played those strings for years and finally decided to try a new brand (for me) GHS. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on those, I really like them. What's your standard string choice if it's not spec'd by a customer?

Zoning in on the right string gauge is really a tough one, and a rather individual variance. By default I would start with somewhere in the .012-.054 with a wound third for this, but might go up to .011-.049 for a low tuned shredder. Lighter than that and they can just get to limp to be useful.

On the other side I've done .015-.070, and with reasonably good results for the right player, but it's really quite hard to say what will actually work best for any individual's needs. My gut feeling is that the optimum choice can often lie more in how the player uses their right hand than the feeling in their left. When you get this low on a short scale (relative to pitch) though, all bets are off. It's really somewhat of a crap shoot what will work for them, and can take more trial and error than most would prefer.

We should really add a premium charge for low-tuned setups.

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I'm all for GHS - made in Michigan!

That said, D'Addario is the default in our shop - reliable consistency, availability, customer preference, and price. D'Addario, GHS, Dean Markley (also made in Michigan), and Ernie Ball are all pretty tried and true reliable though. For the more focused and unusual needs (flatwounds, tapewound, silk core, etc) I often go to Thomastik (expensive) or LaBella, which although have a long history of mediocre strings have really stepped up their quality on specialty strings in recent years.

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Actually as a starting point for this, I might try a set of GHS nickel rockers that they make specifically for low tuning. It won't solve every problem, but they do have a wider spread between treble and bass diameters (which I find can help). Plus their nickel roller-wound strings seem to break in a bit better, perhaps giving a bit of lash when they are new but soft enough to break in to see less buzz once they are played a bit. Could be worth a shot (and perhaps help avoid having to make a new nut).

http://www.ghsstrings.com/products/1135 ... -rockerstm

Plus I just really love the feel of their roller wound strings.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks for the tip David, I'll try and track down a set in town. I'd actually soured on DR's awhile back but went with them because I thought they'd be easier for the owner to get his hands on. I think this little discussion is nailing the door shut on them though, and besides where I live GHS' are usually a few cents cheaper anyways!

I have set up a few guitars in drop C using D'Addario EJ22 strings. They are .013->056 with a wound third. They have worked very well. Minimal buzz, actually played quite well.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Alright, I finally got this back from my buddy and went to work on it. I ditched the DR's in favor of the D'Addario EXL158's and it's tuning up nicely. I had to modify the nut for the bottom most strings and the wraparound tailpiece hole had to be enlarged and countersunk a bit for the .062 gauge string, but that was straightforward. I haven't tried intonating it yet and am not expecting a miracle, but the fact that it holds tune up to the 12th fret is already so much better than what it was doing before.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback and a special thanks to David Collins for not only giving me a practical understanding of the physics at play but also for the awesome explanation in laymen's terms which I forwarded to the owner and helped a great deal in managing expectations.

I'd add that the bigger issue for him actually had to do with the pickups he had me put in them, they are from a very reputable company and I don't think there was anything wrong with them from a manufacturing point of view, but in my opinion they are just wound way too hot. I found them to be pretty flat and lifeless for my tastes and actually preferred playing the guitar unplugged because of it, but wasn't sure what they'd sound like through his rig. Turns out he had the same feeling about them, so we're going to do a swap for a set of lower output pups. I actually learned that I much prefer a midrange output pickup and find it to be much more musical, full and airy than the high output guys.

For anyone wondering the EXL158's are .013 .017 .026 .036 .046 and .062, so basically drop the high E on a standard set of 10's and put a bass string on the other end.