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I recently decided to experiment with Royal Lac and its companion product, Seal Lac, on my latest guitar. I am nearing completion of the finish job, and I thought I would offer a few impressions while I am still working with these products.

Robbie O'Brien has provided to Vijay (the owner of the company that makes Royal Lac and Seal Lac) a truly excellent application video specifically for guitars. Like all his videos, it is quite helpful and informative.

Having said that, I struggled to get the finish to smooth out and look good using the method Robbie uses in the video. He uses a brush, then later a fad, and wipes the finish on in overlapping unidirectional strokes. The fad is pretty wet, and he uses no oil. While I deposited a lot of finish on the guitar using this method, it felt like I was never going to get rid of the ridges. I contacted Vijay via email to ask if I could French polish with Royal Lac. In other words, would it play nice with oil?

Vijay assured me that the Royal Lac products work fine with oil. For French polishing, he also suggested thinning the Royal Lac a bit, because the proprietary additives make the products stickier than regular shellac. I wet sanded to smooth out the ridges, then started French polishing.

From that point on, the finish has been much easier to apply, and the look of the guitar has improved dramatically. The difference is so substantial that I feel like Vijay ought to recommend French polish as the main way to finish guitars with Royal Lac, rather than what is shown in the video. I sure wish I had French polished from the beginning.

In any event, now that I am using an application method that works for me, the finish is going on quite well. I will post photos when done. If the finish is as durable as claimed, this may turn out to be my ideal finish.

I just wish someone would sell one of these hard shellac blends in dry form. No way I could make it through a whole pint before it goes bad, plus being forced to use denatured alcohol rather than the safer drinkable kind

Sounds like a good finish, though.

I agree, I would rather mix it myself. It might not be possible, though. According to Vijay, Seal Lac can be re-liquified in solvent after drying, but Royal Lac cannot. You might want to e-mail him for more information. He responds promptly.

On the alcohol front, I can say that I have not noticed any smell issues with whatever Vijay uses. I would rather use Everclear, too, but I can't get it in my state any more, so I have to use the nicer brands of denatured alcohol that are sold for finishing. The hardware store denatured stinks too bad, but the nicer brands are OK.

Thanks for the review this has been something I've been wanting to try as well and I would also prefer to use the FP method since I'm comfortable with it. Even with regular shellac I still brush on at least two coats and maybe even three to get started. I cannot get Everclear in Virginia either and I'd not heard of alcohol sold for furniture making I need to look into that.

Thanks for that info Don. So when you thin the product for French polish are you thinning and then using that thinned product in the fad, or are you thinning as you load the fad with drops of both royal lac and drops of DA? Also, what kind of oil are you using? Would love to see pictures and hear what you think when you are all done.

Instead of using the Denatured stuff why not use Isopropanol? You need the 99% grade and it's readily available, no added dye. Don't know about some of the State laws but there are no bans on it here in the UK. It dissolves shellac as readily as DA. In fact it's cheaper for me to buy Isopropanol than the DA. I buy it by the gallon from the Ebay suppliers.
Isopropanol flashes off a little slower than DA but the difference is very marginal. In fact I conducted an 'evaporation race' between the two alcohols by filling two identical bottle caps. The DA won the race a day and a half later. . . but by about an hour. It's not a big enough factor. The evaporation rate of Ethyl alcohol lies somewhere between the two.
DA over here always contained the Purple dye and (supposedly) Pyridene but I'm seeing a lot of DA without the dye these days.

I tested both Seal Lac and Royal Lac on a piece of Walnut. I also used Robbie's method of using the brush initially then switching to a Muneca/Fad, applying fairly wet passes initially then getting lighter and in the end adding alcohol to the Muneca in addition to the Royal Lac. When I started, I put on a seal coat of Seal Lac, then put on a couple of more coats and while still wet, wiped them cross grain to force into pores. Sanded back the next day and repeated. Truth is, when I did that a couple of times, the pores were practically filled. Then after leveling it back I proceeded with the Royal Lac. Brushing with the grain, I put on about 4 to 6 coats, at the rate of 2 per day. Sanded back the next day then re-coated. Then I started using the Muneca, dipping into Royal Lac, working with the grain, initially doing 2 coats a day, then going to 3 or 4 coats a day once I started going lighter on the Royal Lac. I suppose I put on 12 to 15 coats this way. I sanded back using progressively finer MicroMesh. I was experimenting, so I wasn't careful, but I just did what seemed right. In the end, I had a surface that was quite nice, and after a couple of days I polished it out with progressive sanding using MicroMesh then Meguires Swirl Remover. Looks very nice. Pores nearly all filled, with a few showing here and there. The process took about a week or so, but the amount of work was quite small. Sanding was more work than putting on finish.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I have lost a lot of my bookmarks during a computer switch and I can't find Vijay's website. Can someone provide that please.

I used to use a shellac thinner made by Behlen in the U.S. It's called Behkol. I got it through Lee Valley in Canada. At that time it was 95% ethyl and 5% isopropyl. I now use Lee Valley shellac thinner. Ingredients aren't on the label but my guess is that they made a deal with Behlen to supply Behkol with Lee Valley labeling and that it is the same thing. It certainly smells the same. Unobtrusive and quite nice actually.

http://www.shellacfinishes.com/

And while there I saw that shipping to Canada is possible again. Nice.

cheers, SteveG

They sell the Behlen solvent here. I once bought some but it's mighty expensive, especially since it just evaporates into thin air!
This is the stuff that I use. Very cheap considering it also includes shipping. For some odd reason I seem to go through solvent at an alarming rate and (honestly) I haven't drank alcohol in quite a number of years (days).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1-X-5-LI ... RTM1793643

For the sessions I did last night, I just applied the as-it-comes 2 lb. cut to the fad, then thinned by adding more alcohol to the fad (along with a spot of olive oil). I'm going to switch to both thinning what I keep in my little application bottle and adding some alcohol to the fad, because it was still a little prone to sticking last night, compared to shellac I mix myself. Overall, I think thinner is better with this stuff.

I like olive oil because it is not a drying oil. I will eventually be able to completely remove it from the guitar. I have used walnut oil in the past, and I have heard that it can make ordinary shellac a tougher finish if you let the walnut oil blend with the shellac during application. However, Royal Lac and Seal Lac already have hardening additives in there, and I don't want to monkey with how that chemical process will work as the finish hardens. So, I am sticking with olive oil.

Regarding brands of alcohol:

I love Everclear, and would always recommend it over denatured alcohol. If you can't get Everclear, then Behkol is really good. It doesn't smell bad like hardware store denatured alcohol. I have heard that Kleen Strip Green is not bad, but I have not used it personally (not yet). I have also heard that Sherman Williams carries a nice brand of denatured alcohol, but again, no personal experience. I still have a stockpile of a really nice denatured alcohol from Woodcraft. It was bottled by one of the finishing supply companies, like Homestead (I think). It smells great! But I don't think they sell it any more. Too bad. When I run out of that stuff, I will probably try to drive to a neighboring state to buy some Everclear. They will think I'm hosting a wild party when I buy two large bottles. If I run out of states that sell it, I will just order Behkol online. I know I can rely on it.

Vijay is offering a discount on purchases from his company http://www.shellacfinishes.com You will need to use Coupon code rors214 for a discount on Royal-Lac and Seal-Lac products.

If you want to buy other products like shellac flakes, French Polishing kits etc,
then you should use coupon code ro1010 for a 10% discount.
There are no discounts for the DVDs or the downloadable video products.

Just found this thread, interesting to see so many people using Seal/Royal Lac.

I used Seal Lac and Royal Lac on my most recent guitar because I wanted something more durable than standard shellac via French polish and a thinner, more vintage looking finish than sprayed/polished finish. (pictures on my blog, link below). The Selmer style acoustic jazz guitars I build, are played hard and put away wet. Perspiration is always present, standard shellac gives up quickly, as do most water based finishes, oils and even some lacquers. Until Royal Lac, the only thing that holds up is marine varnish which I spray, wet sand and polish to a high gloss like nitro.

On this guitar, its going on a month now and half a dozen gigs, so far so good. Besides being perspiration resistant, the material also seems very hard. I tried to mark recently for a little cut I had to make in it the underlying wood and neither pencil or pen would mark it at all. Was able to scratch it with a knife point but it didn't show very well (a good thing in a finish). Standard shellac is sensitive to fingernails for months after application. Royal Lac seems to harden up overnight, quite hard after a couple days.

I epoxy filled the mahogany back and sides and simply padded the Seal Lac and Royal Lac on. The top had a reeded surface like a violin and the overall finish appearance goal was a faded-gloss. After padding on about 10 coats, wet, strokes with the grain only. I occasionally lightly sanded with 600 grit paper. A day after the last coat, I "polished" the surface with white plastic wool which evened out the sheen which was a little streaky. The result is a thin, pleasing vintage style finish that doesn't look fake like a sprayed on flat finish and provides great protection for the wood. My polished varnish finish takes a month start to finish. Royal Lac is a week including epoxy filling, Seal Lac, Royal Lac and done. I used no oil and usually waited an hour between coats. You can overcoat in about 10 minutes, but waiting 1-2 hours allows for a smoother coat and probably results in a harder finish quicker. A coat only takes five minutes, neck included. on the butternut neck, used Seal Lac only to fill pores, did not try to seal all, finished with Royal Lac, came out beautiful. Playing it has polished the underside of the neck nicely, looks very authentic.

I used the Garnet Royal Lac, worked good, but I would not want to try circular pad application, I think it would get blotchy fast.

The finish appearance is not high gloss, more of a warm glow. It does not hide all imperfections like a built up, wet sanded and polished finish, or a well done French polish, but it has an appeal. May not be for everyone, but everyone I've shown it to likes it. Given its hardness, I'm sure a higher gloss can be achieved with FP methods or wet sand & polish.

I've tried LOTS of finishes. Lacquers, varnishes, water based acrylics and urethanes, oils, FP and gotta say, I love this stuff.

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Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog

BTW, I don't care much for those large mouth jars Seal Lac and Royal Lac come in. Easy to spill and the thread get jammed up with shellac quickly. I pour what I had off into 8 oz. plastic squeeze bottles I bought by the dozen on Amazon. Much easier to use and probably will keep the product fresh longer.

_________________
Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog

I've been following this thread with interest. Thanks, guys, for sharing your experience with Seal Lac and Royal Lac. I ordered some this morning after Robbie's post about the coupon.

One question for those who have used Royal Lac. How does it feel on the neck compared to other finishes?

The Royal Lac neck I recently declared "done" (so now I wait for it to harden) feels just like shellac. It should, since this finish is shellac with some extras.

I've finished two necks with Royal Lac and played them, as Don says, it feels similar to shellac. Not quite the same, but I'm not sure I can really described it. Harder may describe it and this perception of hardness seems to make the neck finish feel "fast", minimal friction, no drag or grab. Anyhow, I think it is a very nice neck finish, nothing funny about it. Certainly quick to apply. One neck went on a guitar I built and have been playing for a month. The other was on a neck I slimmed down for the owner and refinished. The RL treatment took a couple day, I played it on the third day, shipped it on the fourth. Owner was very happy.

Royal Lac seems pretty forgiving of starting and stopping points while padding on wet, which makes it good for necks where there is a lot of different surfaces, edges, inside corners, etc. Again, I apply it wet, with a pad (just folded tee-shirt cotton, not a ball like a French polish rubber). The trick for me is to lay down a streak of wet RL about 1" to 1-1/4" wide, with the grain from one end of the piece to the other, then lay another one right beside it with just a little overlap and work across the piece this way. Don't hit the same place twice in succession or you will immediately feel the drag of the fresh finish below and the second pass will go down rough. This can be sanded out if it happens, but better to avoid in the first place. Again, I'm not French polishing, no circular passes with oil or otherwise. From what others are saying here, sounds like it works fine as a French polish, but I haven't tried it.

_________________
Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog

I have sprayed, brushed, padded, French polished and even wiped on this finish with a rag. All methods work well. I would thin it to a 1 pound cut or even a little less to French polish with it.

I'm pretty sure that my inability to make the guitar look good with the straight stroke method is more about my shortcomings as a finisher than it is about the finish material. I'm just used to French polishing, so that works better for me. I should have French polished from the beginning. Thank goodness this finish can be applied in many ways.

I think if you watch Robbie's video, you can't mess this stuff up. It really goes on easily. Very nice to work with.

I also dislike the wide mouth jars a great deal. They are troublesome to open, and you really have to clean the threads in the lid and the top of the "jar" every time. Takes almost as long as applying finish to one of the surfaces! Bottles would be a better choice. The jars are nice for dipping a brush or pad but are really troublesome, otherwise. Let folks pour into a small shallow dish or container, or put in a small bottle with a dropper top, which is what I like for Tru-Oil and other shellac products. I did discover that, when opening a jar that's been sitting for a while, if you turn it upside down, and let it sit for a while, then flip it upright and tap the corner of the top with a rubber hammer, lightly, it usually opens right up.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Im in CA where we cant go to a liquor store and buy Everclear but my local grocery store has 100% Vodka. Seems to me that would work the same as EC.

I don't think it works like that. You might be confusing proof with percentage. They are not the same thing. 100 proof is not 100% alcohol. It is 50% alcohol. The other 50% is probably all water. Take the proof figure, cut it in half, and that's the percentage of alcohol in the liquid in question. If you can't get Everclear (190 proof, right?), you surely can't get anything that is 200 proof.

This was Royal Lac viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43991

I intend to continue using it.

Beating the dead horse of alcohol availability:

I checked my hoarded stash of good smelling denatured alcohol. It was distributed by Ron Hock. He no longer sells it. I think it was just rebranded alcohol from Brooklyn Tool & Craft, another company that seems to not sell it directly any longer. The good news is that Vijay sells alcohol. Given the quality of the finish we are all discussing, I bet we can count on his alcohol to be the good stuff.

On the jars: Yeah, I struggled to get one open. The walls of the jars are thin enough that I worry about breaking them if I manhandle them too aggressively to get them open. I may have to re-bottle mine, as suggested above. This is a minor problem, though.