Official Luthiers Forum!

First off, I'll preface by saying that I've built over 20 electric guitars from scratch and 1 acoustic. I went to Roberto Venn some years back. So I have a pretty good idea of what replacing a neck would involve and that it's a relatively big job to be done to a guitar.

I recently purchased a "Seagull Original Grand Sunburst" from Sweetwater.com. Wanted a simple North American made acoustic and this one seemed to fit the bill. $479 brand new. I'm more of an electric guitar maker and player but I build them to sell them. I don't even own one of my own guitars at the moment. I just don't really have the desire to build an acoustic for myself. So I picked up the Seagull.

The seagull is made from cherrywood, spruce, maple and rosewood. I had been toting around a Fender cp100 parlor acoustic that I bought to throw around, and it has been decent, but I wanted something slightly nicer and that wasn't made in Indonesia. I've never liked Fender acoustics much anyway. The Seagull really does sound pretty good and is very easy to play. Not much low end and sounds slightly thin, but I expected that. It's a parlor. Especially for the price, it is a very nice guitar. It's addictive to play. Much smoother and nicer than the inexpensive Fender.

However, I do not like the neck carve. It is a bit of a mild V carve and I find the contours near the fretboard to be harsh and a bit uncomfortable on my hand. The neck is also a bit thinner than I would like. Its neck measures .820 thick at the first fret. I like a neck that tapers from .860 or so at the first fret up to at least .960 at the 12th. There are also slight inconsistencies and mild bumps and ridges along the back of the neck. The heel is a bit ugly as well. It's just not a good neck (to me and my taste). The headstock is also just.... I mean... Come on...

SO! I have been pondering removing this neck and making a whole new one with a nice beefy C/D profile, traditional Martin style headstock, and just better overall quality. The body of the guitar really is beautiful and perfectly acceptable. It has a real nitro top and the back and sides appear to be a hand rubbed varnish. The neck is a bolt on, so that simplifies things. I would just have to remove the glued down fingerboard tongue. If I do this, I would spend 1 or 2 weekend days and bang it out. Then I would have a pretty unique guitar. I might even buy a pre slotted and tapered board just to make things even quicker and easier for me. I would finish it with hand rubbed varnish. Tru Oil probably.

One of the only main concerns that I have is about getting the exact proper scale length distance from nut to bridge. Typically during acoustic guitar building you would have the neck completely attached before making your final bridge location. So this is where I have been having a bit of trouble in my mind. I suppose that I could always remove the bridge, plug the old bridge pins and slightly move the bridge if it came down to it. I would make a new bridge that was ever so slightly larger so as to cover up any old markings of its previous location.

I know it likely sounds a little nutty to do this to a brand new guitar. But I'm confident in my abilities and it sure would be a lot less time consuming that building a whole acoustic. I see it as a much quicker and easier way to get a customized, inexpensive acoustic. I'm really an electric builder and I don't have any of the molds or jigs required to make an acoustic. This was one of the only guitars that fit the price range I was looking at and that fit my wants for North American wood and production.

What do you think? Anyone ever replaced an entire neck before? How did you make sure you have the scale length spot on?

I happen to find Seagull's headstock profile very graceful and pleasing.
If you do remove the neck, send it to me. I like them, and have owned several.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Haha Deal. I'm keeping the tuning keys though.

Why not just use the existing one as a template for the new one? If you are not planning to change the scale length then you have all the measurements you need.

If you don't want to do that then the measurement is pretty simple. The nut will be the same distance from the 12th fret as it is from the saddle to the 12th fret. Just take into consideration the compensation of the saddle and you have the measurement you need.

Seems like a lot of work for a $500 guitar though. If you just sell it and put that money plus what you will end up spending to make a new neck (plus your time) you could buy something better that you like. That is unless you just want the experience of building a neck...

Cheers,
Bob

It does sound like a lot of work, but I don't think it would be as difficult as it sounds. I think I could do most of the work in probably one day. Then just wait a bit for the varnish to fully dry. I've already got a great chunk of kiln dried cherrywood that I would use for the neck. Only money I'd spend would be on a fretboard if I choose not to cut and slot my own. So It's really just a little bit of time and effort that I would have to spend, rather than money. And honestly, I guess I kind of enjoy the challenge.

Hell, maybe I'll even pick up one of these and make it even easier on myself. Though I don't know if the bolt alignments and insert tab would be the same.
http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Su ... _Neck.html

I did a lot of searching for a 14 fret $500 or less North American made parlor guitar. Not many out there. Aren't even many in the $500 to $1000 range. All of martins guitars in the low price range are made of HPL. This seagull just really fit the bill.

I'm hoping maybe someone on here has replaced a neck an a badly damaged acoustic or something like that and could share what they experienced.

I've never done this but what I would do would be:

-Measure the distance from the 12th fret to the saddle (assuming it is compensated to your satisfaction)
-Mount the new neck blank carved without the fretboard attached to get the heel fit properly with the neck angle and center-line set correctly
-Locate the position of the new fretboard with the neck attached such that the 12th fret to saddle location matches the old measurement (locator pins or whatever reliable method you choose to achieve repeatable re-positioning)
-Remove the neck and glue the fretboard to the blank
-Carve the neck profile and finish up everything else

When you mount the neck, everything should be right where you want it.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

.

Sounds interesting.. I'm quite new to all this and I found making the neck really enjoyable but it was very time consuming.. Your much more experienced than I am at necks..getting the neck joint angle and looking good was really time consuming not to mention fret work levelling etc much more than a days work to get it right..good luck will be the guitar you want at the end of it all

I've made and carved 20+ electric necks from scratch. But I have only ever made 1 acoustic neck. It may well take longer than 1 day but I bust stuff out pretty quick when I get into it. I imagine getting it done over a weekend perhaps. I'm not the most experienced guitar maker in the world by any means, but I've worked for guitar companies as a laborer, visited a few factories over the years and watched closely how they do things, attended to a luthierie school and have been building on my own for 5 or 6 years.

Once I have a neck ready to carve (fretboard glued down and slotted, overall thickness from 1st fret to 12th fret established, headstock shape cut out and edges sanded, sides of neck flushed squarely with fretboard edge) I will go to town carving it and have it fully done and sanded up to 320 grit within a couple of hours. I typically do the same exact neck carve everytime. So it's started to become pretty ingrained in my mind. I always aim for .860" at 1st fret tapered to .960" at 12th fret with a fat C/borderline D profile.

Impressive.. im about 30 times slower than that lol.. sounds like with your skills you should go for it and you will end up with the guitar you will really want to keep

How about recarving the existing neck? Take all the finish off, and take down the V shape until it is comfortable, and refinish. Much less hassle than removing the neck and making a new one.
If it doesn't work out, you are only out the time you put into it, and then you can go the new neck route.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Oh I definitely spent an entire day on the first few necks I carved. haha I've just become more efficient with practice I guess. I think I've found that if you just get into the zone and keep going with the flow it comes out much smoother than if you constantly stop, overthink and second guess yourself. It might sound wrong, but I think and measure and analyze very little when I carve. The less thinking the better! I just start doing it and don't stop til it's done. But it took several neck carves until I got to a point where I could have this kind of approach. I just keep a straight edge handy and place it along the backside of the neck every few minutes as I'm carving to be sure it's coming along totally uniform.

It's a good thought. I would do that, but I want the neck about .040" thicker than it is. Right now it's only .820" at the first fret and I want it closer to .0860" and minus the V profile. Know of a good way to add material to the neck to make it thicker?? Maybe I'll use epoxy!

Please use Titebond or hide glue....

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Sounds as though you didn't really even need to post a question about how to do it if you have done that many and can do one in a couple of hours.

I say go for it then. You will have exactly the guitar you want in the end and you can say you did it.

Cheers,
Bob

I just re-read my last post and could see how someone might read it as being sarcastic and that is not what I meant.

What I mean is if you have built a lot of electrics then you already know about scale length and intonation. Acoustics are no different than electrics in that sense. Because you are only dealing with the neck it really shouldn't be out of your comfort zone. I mainly repair acoustics and that is my preference but I have no problem working on electric guitars.

So I say just go for it.

Cheers,
Bob

Good thoughts on getting the neck all ready before attaching the fretboard. I think that's going to be the key. I hadn't thought of that.

My concern was that I was going to sand too much from the heel of the new neck in order to get the proper pitch and so forth and in doing so I would mess up the scale length. But if I do like you say and attach the fretboard to the new neck afterwards I can slightly tweak it's positioning depending upon exactly what I need.

Thanks for the tips.

Oh no problem man, I gotcha. Yeah I guess the carving isn't the concern for me. It's just making sure that I create the new neck in a way to be sure that the scale length would remain perfectly spot on for the original bridge. I've worked with acoustics very little. I was visualizing trying to get the neck angle and side to side set and removing too much from and altering the bridge location. I think the earlier suggestion about holding off on attaching the fretboard is a great suggestion and is likely what I will do if I do go ahead and give this a go. However, I've been doing some searching online and have just discovered that Seagulls have epoxied neck joints. They are bolt on necks but also have epoxy under the fingerboard tongue.

You should be able to warm the fingerboard extension and release the epoxy easily. Just take your time and let the heat work through the fingerboard.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I imagine it takes a higher temperature to release epoxy than titebond, no? I would maybe be afraid of heating too much and releasing other joints on the body.

At first I was under the impression that this guitar was a full bolt on similar to a Taylor neck joint. Then I learned that in addition to 2 bolts on the heel there is epoxy under the fretboard extension.

If you skip to 20:42 of this video you see how the Seagull neck joint is set with epoxy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXGV31hOYhs

Good questions, I suppose I was hasty and short in my reply. I don't know what temperature it would take or what kind of epoxy is used. Hopefully someone with real world experience will chime in.

I'm not recommending this, but it is what I would have done without stopping to ask for advice here:
I would have shielded the wood/finish of the top around the fretboard and the portion of the fretboard not over the body (cardboard with foil on top for the heat shield). With the neck unbolted, I would have positioned my incandescent lamp bulb over the extension and let it slowly warm. I would have checked in periodically to wiggle it and see if I was getting any evidence of things loosening up and when it began I would have started to carefully work in the seam with a metal spatula to help it come apart.

Your concerns are well placed though. I hadn't thought of the center seam or braces softening before the epoxy. My gut says it would be okay but I have been wrong many times before. Sorry for the potentially bad advice.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

All glues commonly used in luthiery begin loosening as you approach 200 degrees.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Interesting that Godin would choose to put epoxy in their neck joints. I wonder if their reasoning is a financial one or whether it's because they feel it's somehow stronger or better than traditional wood glues. I had always been under the impression that it was basically sacrilege to use such a glue on a guitar.

They used to say the same thing about super glues.
One just has to be smart about it.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I say build yourself a neck you like and then build a body to go along with it. The renecking is a lot of work for a budget guitar. In the end you may find yourself still not happy with it.

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Another day, another dollar.