Official Luthiers Forum!

#1 is strung up and sounds fantastic (the bridge fix worked great, BTW). Solid, clear, strong bass that rumbles your chest when you play. Love it!

Trebles could use a little help, though. They're not bad at all and, in fact, would be considered good if the bass wasn't so powerful. Any "after the fact" helps for this? I'm working with a Sitka top with forward shifted, scalloped bracing roughly based on the Stew Mac herringbone plan. Yes, I know it's a new guitar and the top's still a little tight. I also know the forward shifted, scalloped bracing lends itself to a slightly bass heavy guitar.

One thing I question is this: My original intention was to scallop the bass side of the X-brace and taper the treble side along the lines of what Dana B does. But, before I knew it, I had started a scallop on the treble side. In my experimentation, I continued the scallop, but left a little more meat than on the bass. I'm thinking it may be wise to go back in and start taking the treble side down a little.

I'm also thinking about trying a PMTE on this rascal, too. I almost did from the git-go, but held off. What is the general consensus of the response. MARIO, YOU OUT THERE?? I know the response will likely be to just try it and see, which I'll probably do anyway, but I'm curious what is the typical change you see with this.

So that's my thinking. Add a PMTE behind the bridge plate and start working down the treble X-brace. Any other thoughts?

Oh, and I'm thinking I may start sanding the top of my bridge some. Think I've got a little more meat than I need. I do intend to just try one at a time to see the change it makes. Would you tend to agree and in what order would you likely go at them?

Thanks as always!!

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

In my experience trebles respond to stiffness. I really do not believe that working the different sides of the top differently is the answer. In other words, I think that scalloping the treble side of the brace will just accentuate the bass some more at the expense of the trebles. I think the top works more as a whole diaphram than two separate diaphrams. If your bridge was split and the depth of the bridge differed from treble to bass then that might be justification for some of that kind of tinkering, but I really don't think even then you can isolate the lower bout into separate zones.

Stiffness favors trebles. Lightness favors trebles. If it were my top I would take the radical position of gluing a tall thin brace (1/8 inch ) to the top just behind the bridge plate (touching the plate in fact) and terminating in the treble arm of the X and wherever it hits the first tone bar. Taper the ends of that brace. I would bet a months pay that your trebles would take a jump in the right direction and your bass would not suffer.

John

Wes, how long has it been strung up? Give it AT LEAST a week before making any assumptions on its sound.
Every single guitar ive made has sounded like crap on first string up, and then after a few hours sounded MUCH better, after a week of string tention and some play time, the start to come together. Id try a new set of strings too.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I'm having a problem with a grand concert gtr, It has engleman spruce top (standardish thickness) & braces (5/16" thick X braces, 1/4" thick elsewhere) It sounds too dark. Cocobolo bridge, ebony bridgepins, EIR bridge plate, grenadillo B & S, corian nut & saddle. (planning to upgrade to bone, maybe bone bridgepins too)

I was thinking of making a sister guitar, but carpathian top and braces. I think the engleman is at fault. It doesn't sound that good strummed (headroom)

Any other ideas?
KEVIN GALLAGHER, what sayest thou? Since you'll see this soon...

Construction pic below - yeah, so what IS the deal with the tone bars layout? I don't know why I did that...



Terry Stowell38782.4814467593

I find that the first six months break-in is still accruing. Clarity and sustain in the treble is one of the nuances that seems to get better with the break in.

       This is that part of the art of luthiery. Learning what responds well ti the different bracing. I am a follower of the old Martin X bracing before the engineers got it.
        The softer spuces tend to loose the headroom and the finding a balance of the bracing adjustments along with saddle and pin influences can help to a degree.
      I like the standard bracing for flatpickn harder strummers. Lighter 1/4 for fingerpicking
scalloping tends to bounce the top and get you more bass. This is the fun getting to build all the guitars and seeing what you learn as you go,
john hall

Details! What are the details?!?

What's your saddle of? Does it fit -perfecdtly-? What are the pins? How are they fitted? What is the bridge mass and material? What is the bridge plate?

What is the nut? What are the tuners? How are they fitted?

Don't go looking at the bracing to fine tune tone. Ain't there. that defines your overall tone. You used a forward shifted brace pattern? Don't expect great top end(treble) from it. It is what you have; great bottom end. If you want the helpt he top end now, the fine details is where you need to head.

And forget the PMTE; it helps the bottom end further...

Would someone educate me on what "PMTE" is?

_________________
Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

Great responses! To answer some questions...

John, I questioned the whole bass/treble side thing in theory myself. I just thought I'd try it based on Dana's builds. I'm learning as I go here. But, along those lines, why then can I expect a change from the extra brace between the treble side X and tone bar if location doesn't matter? And how is this very much different than the PMTE, which Mario says tends to favor bass? Sure, I know there are LOTS more variables to consider. I think I'm just more confused...

Lance, I know I'm being a little impatient. I just strung it up and these are initial impressions after a half hour or so. And (Michael) I have heard the same thing in response to the treble getting better over time.

Mario, it is a forward shifted pattern, so I knew to expect it to lean more toward the bass, which is what I was after. I'm not so much unhappy with the tone - I love it! - just looking at what could be better. As far as details: I am using a bone nut and saddle, currently with unslotted ebony pins. I have some bone pins I could play with and swap out. Tuners are Grover Sta-tites, small maple bridge plate. Madagascar rosewood belly bridge (no weight measurements for you, sorry, but could be a little heavy?) and MadRose fingerboard. Long through saddle I would say is fitted perfectly. Good tight "snap in" fit that is now glued in after the cracked bridge (which I CA'ed and clamped together). Bridge is slotted and ramped, pins are well fitted in the taper, but a couple of them are still a little high. I need just a little more work there. Very good break angle, but stronger on the bass side, as the pin holes do not follow the angle of the saddle. Nut at this point is not even glued in - I was just finishing the setup work. Nut action is set pretty well now, but the saddle is still on the high side while I wait on things to settle in before the final setup.


Thanks again!

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Lance I am experiencing exactly what you described with the new SJ here. It sounded good at string up but I am wondering if I am nuts since I think that it sounds better each time I spend 30 minutes or so with it. It's almost noticible in a single playing session.

[/QUOTE]

Hesh,

I had the same thought too (about myself, not you ). It's typical that the tone changes even as you play when it's a very fresh instrument, even on older ones that have had the box glued back together. It may go on for months, though not as noticeably as time passes. Part of the magic of this craft!

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Cocephus] Would someone educate me on what "PMTE" is?[/QUOTE]

The PMTE is shorthand for the Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer. See Mario's site for further explanation.

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

The PMTE is a nickname attached to a little brace that is now finding its way into many other guitars as part of the hot rod movement...

Wes, the PMTE, or anything else yuo add to the area, increases mass right at the bridge, and this lends to a deeper bottom end. Now, antyhing else you do to the other braces, location-wise, also has great effects on tone, but you're not able to move thinsga round now that you've built it. This is what I menat; the design is not set, and you have to live with its restrictions. From here, you can only refine, but the base has been set.

Sound slike you have everything in place, and it sould work well. Were the Grovers holes stepped, and do the shafts fit snug? Bone pins will help. Slottingt eh bottom of the saddle would help, too, but you aren't going there since it's all glued up.

But here's a golden opportunity! You need to change this bridge eventually. No ifs ands or buts. Lose the Mad RW, and get yee some Braz., and get more than one. Choose the lightest for this guitar. Why? Because you know it needs to be brighter, so you know the bridge needs to be lighter. Now, you could use EIR for the next bridge, being as its even lighter, but I don't like what it does for the overall tone, so stick with Braz.... Make the bridge lower, and shape it such to make it lighter, still, while fiting the footprint you have.

That will help a ton, I bet.

For now, ease up! 30 minutes? I don't begin to really judge a guitar for its first week... Mandolins take a month. Give itm some time, play it HARD when you do play it, and give her a chance to show you what she can be. LEave it out where the air can circulate around it, too. May be a bit green...

Oh, and don't neglect to try some various strings; every guitar wants different strings. Try some GHS white bronze, or even the GHS Contact Core strings...

[QUOTE=Terry Stowell] I'm having a problem with a grand concert gtr, It has engleman spruce top (standardish thickness) & braces (5/16" thick X braces, 1/4" thick elsewhere) It sounds too dark.

I think the engleman is at fault. It doesn't sound that good strummed (headroom)
[/QUOTE]
Terry, Terry, Terry...don't blame the wood!    By "dark" I'm thinking you mean you're getting a muffled, mid-rangey tone? If so, I think it's because you've overbuilt your bracing, and the top is just not moving enough. You've already mentioned a major cause...those tone bars are just too long and too hefty! Shave those puppies down to about nothing toward their ends. It's hard to tell from the photo--is your "X" lap joint capped? Alan Carruth says it's not done until it is. 'Nuff said. You could also take some more wood off the sides of just about all your bracing. Taper 'em toward their tops and they'll retain their strength while allowing the top to vibrate better (less mass). Take it slow, do one part at a time, restring and hear how it sounds. Oh, and don't punch a hole through the top (did I mention to take it slow?)!

Thanks.

I thought of shaving from the sides of the braces, and thought it may be overbuilt a little. I don't have a small enough plane to do the job though. (anyone care to lend me one?)

I have to still glue the tongue down and change out the nut, saddle, & br pins too. Any thoughts on slotted VS. non slotted pins?



Also I was planning to use 2, not four finger braces. I guess on a G. C. I could get away with that.

I was planning to take it to Kevin Gallagher's when I visit & see what he says after hearing it.

Now after 3 months of playing it, I'm ready to start fine tuning the details

Thank ye all


Terry Stowell38782.7376273148

[QUOTE=Terry Stowell]
I thought of shaving from the sides of the braces, and thought it may be overbuilt a little. I don't have a small enough plane to do the job though.[/QUOTE]
You could use (or make) a small scraper to do the job. Just be sure you round and tape the outer edges so you can't cut into the top. That way, you can feel the brace as you guide the scraper, and you'll have less chance of chipping or tearing the wood. Start with the tone bars, take it slow, see how it sounds and proceed from there (and cap that "X" intersection, if it's not!).

More great advise as always. Thanks y'all!

I wasn't planning on major changes until I got a chance to play it in a little, at least. Maybe I need to wait even longer? Patience...patience...

Mario, to answer you, no, the tuner holes were not stepped. In fact, they wound up oversized to the point the grommets wouldn't press in. Cheated and dabbed a little CA in from the back side. Should I go ahead and plug and redrill 'em? Obviously it's important or you wouldn't have mentioned it. Aside from just "right being right" for quality's sake, what's the benefit, tonewise? I do understand that any amount of slop in any fit on a guitar just equals energy lost. Is this a serious consideration for tuner holes?

And I will get some Braz to make another bridge. Without being able to weigh the bridge plate (but understanding it is a small maple plate from the Stew Mac design), do you have ballpark weight range for the bridge?

Now educate me on the "slotted saddle" thing. I haven't heard of this one! And I've read lots of OLF and MIMF archives! Do you mean like scalloping between the strings, but on the bottom? I really don't understand. Is this something you do on all of yours or just when you want to accentuate the treble? I'm really interested in this concept!

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Wes, you do know you are on the wrong side of the Trinity for your user ID don't ya

Yes, plug them holes and re-drill them correctly. The striong doesn't care which end vibrates, and thus sends energy out both ends. One end is the bridge, so that is obvious, but the other is the tuner. If the tuner flops around freely, the energy goes up as heat. Lost. If the tuner shaft is snug to the headstock, the little bit of energy there gets into the neck, and makes its way tot eh body. And this energy, for whatever reason physics gives it, lends to brighten the guitar. This is why I don't like to overbuild the neck block area of my tops. It's why I don't use the popsycle brace, and why others pay to have theirs' removed... Grab those string's energy; it's there, it's free. And it's good...

The bottome of the saddle is an old trick. Just make saw kerfs right under the string you wish to bring out a tad more. It isn't going to be a big change, but like the tuner holes, if you grab every little bit, in the end, it starts to add up.

No need to shoot for a number, because you're locked into the footprint for that bridge(you want it to fit where the other was, or it will look goofy <g>), so just try to makie it as light as tyou can, given that. No need to make it ugly or anything, but try to make the wings thinner, bring them in further, round off the belly more, etc... And try those bone pins! The maple plate should eb the ticket, so don't change that.

I agree with what Mario said about the bridge: loose some mass. We had an interesting time at the New England Luthier meeting yesterday with that: swapped a bridge out on an archtop, and the difference in tone was really noticable. One weighed almost twice as much as the other, and the heavy one had far more bass (or, maybe, less treble). I like to 'streamline' my bridges, making the back edge only about as thick as the bridge wings by tapering the upper surface back from the saddle slot.

I also agree that you need to give it time! Although a good guitar _should_ sound at least pretty good right out of the box (and it seems like yours does), they also tend to sound a lot better in a day, or a week, or a month. Give it at least a few weeks to start to settle in, and then you'll have an idea of where it's going.

I _do_ think there is one thing you can do to help bring up the treble: thin the top a bit in the 'wings', outboard of the bridge ends. This can bring up the treble some. I know it seems counterintuitive: reducing stiffness to bring up the treble, but it does work, although the acoustic reasoning is a bit involved.... Similarly, thinning the top behind the bridge can often help bring up the bass, for totally other reasons.

Man,great timing. I'm bracing my top Sat. and was wondering what is "capping the x brace? Is that a seperate piece over top of the two? What does it do for the sound. Are the two tone bars on Terry's guitar the two bottom braces? Are they not to go to the rim? Which side is the treble side of the x brace? Didn't want to take over this thread but reading this thread got me thinking....Clinton

Whatcha mean, Michael? I'm about 30 miles west of Fort Worth.

And, FWIW:
wes = me
tex = who I am (2 kinds of people - those from Texas and those who wish they were, right?
93 = when lucky me married my beautiful wife

Odessa? Tell you what. Next time I go out to Lubbock I'll get out and stand on the hood of my truck and wave. I'm sure you'll be able to see me from your back yard, right?

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

[QUOTE=westex93] Whatcha mean, Michael? I'm about 30 miles west of Fort Worth.

And, FWIW:
wes = me
tex = who I am (2 kinds of people - those from Texas and those who wish they were, right?
93 = when lucky me married my beautiful wife

Odessa? Tell you what. Next time I go out to Lubbock I'll get out and stand on the hood of my truck and wave. I'm sure you'll be able to see me from your back yard, right? [/QUOTE]

OOPs Wes I was thinking Spring Tx not Springtown my mistake

crich:
'Capping' is putting a piece of wood across the open part of the lap joint when you have the bracing glued to the top. Martin uses a little circle of cloth to reinforce this, and it actually works, sort of. If you don't do anything the brace that is 'open' is much less stiff in bending than the other, and it can split along the line of the bottom of the cuttout if there's a blow to the top, or even from the down pressure of the strings on the bridge after a while.

All you need to do is put a little piece of wood across the opening. I generally use a piece of spruce from a brace offcut, maybe 2" long. Once it's glued down you can trim most of the height off; it only needs to be about 1/8" thick or less, but it should be the full width of the brace and run for an inch or so on either side of the opening.

Thanks Alan! I'll make sure I'll do that. Clinton