Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh, could i kindly disagree with you regarding the normalized scale of measurements, i see it as a plus to have both types and it helps us grow internationally, the folks on the other side of the pond are able to work with both and so should we. Most of the measuring rulers we buy nowadays have both scales anyway. I hope this doesn't offend you.

I too shorten my fretboard, BUT first you need to know how much. My starting point is based on Buzz Feiten's specs since I am an authorized BFTS manufacturer( I know...so what). All I am saying is that since I want to know how much to shorten the fret board I need to know the scale and how accurate was the nut slot was cut. At that point I then determine how much I am going to remove ( I have done many re-tro fits and can tell you most manufacturers don't pay as much attention to where the nut slot is cut as they should...they are all different...each one). In some cases I have actually had to add on to the fret board because some one cut it too short. I won't name names but the guitar was bought, used, by my customer from a famous store in Vegas( so it is possible that store didn't do the dirty deed). The guitar wouldn't play in tune...the distance from nut to first fret was too short. Bad attempt (probably) at a nut compensation.

Read my article in this upcomming quarter's ( I think it's comming out this month issue # 55?) Guitar Maker Magazine. I show pics and go into more detail. Dave-SKG38781.5373958333

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Sorry Hesh
Andy

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Here's how shortening the nut-to-first-fret distance works: As you have probably noticed, on a lot of (if not most) uncompensated guitars, even if you've got a properly intonated saddle (12th-fret octave correct) pitches at the first three or four frets are sharp. That's because it takes more effort to bend (or fret) a string closest to its pivot points (nut and saddle), and that extra tension pushes the pitch sharp. If you shorten the distance from nut to 1st fret, the open string tuned to pitch will be at a bit less tension, because you've shortened the string length from nut to saddle. Since the string tension is less, and the scale length (fret positions) has not been changed, playing in those first four positions will be more in tune with the open strings because the effort (tension) of bending the string is slightly reduced. The pitches at the middle of the fingerboard are less affected either way due to the relatively lower tension between the string's anchor points. As you approach the saddle (from the 12th fret to fingerboard's end) the string gets tighter again, and that's why we need to move the saddle farther from the actual scale length--making the string effectively longer and flattening the fretted pitch. An important thing to consider, though, if you're compensating the nut: if you've shortened the string length at the nut, you'll need less compensation at the saddle, because the string will be at less tension compared to the scale length, and will naturally play slightly flatter on the higher frets. This can be a problem if you retrofit a nut compensation. You may have to fill and reslot your bridge to move the saddle toward the nut. This, of course, isn't a problem with a new build.

The above applies to a uniform nut compensation, and several people have reported noticably improved intonation when using it. The Feiten system is more involved, using individual nut and saddle compensation for each string, as well as a proprietary tuning scheme. It's very specific to scale length, string type and gauge, and whether you're using standard or altered tuning.

Hi everybody,
                I have been reading this thread with great interest . It surprises me that so many guitars have been/are built to play out of tune because of no nut compensation taken into account.
After 35 years as a piano tuner , I have become extremely sensitive to pitch/intonation .Playing guitars at a music shop sure is interesting for me.
Most settings by way of compensation are indeed a compromise .
The amount of pitch change occuring when a note is fretted varies from player to player depending on how much pressure the player uses with his/her fretting finger/fingers also . One amount of nut compensation may not suit another player with vise like grip!!
I have studied and experimented with various nut compensation over the years including the Buzz Feiten system .
One thing for sure : The bass needs more compensation than the treble.
The measurement of compensation required varies from player to player as stated above.
I personally , compensate .6 m.m. on the bass , and .4 m.m on the treble .This is still not strictly correct as the "B" string likes a bit more !

I have been involved in Concert work nearly all my life and have heard the term "perfect pitch" so many times , I just ignore it.The "term" , IMO ,is a load of rubbish .I have worked with some of the world's best , including great violin players . (good thing they use a vibrato with their "lefty") They might come very close, but ....... . If they are to use the term "perfect" , then it should be just that.    Sure would be handy to not have to use a tuning fork ! ( I always do )

Kindest regards to you all
KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hummmm The only thing that intonating the nut has over intonating the saddle is the end of the scale it has the most tempered affect on. Both adjusting the nut and the saddle do one of two things to the scale length, "make longer or make it shorter". One affects the scale from one end of the scale. the other works from the other.

That said there are advantages to both. In fact there very well may be great logic to do both. Which is most important depends on the ear of the person playing, playing style and such. The guitar, unlike the piano is by nature harmonically flawed. We work around this with compensation. It is my belief that with out separate frets for each sting it is impossible to have a perfect pitch guitar. I have seen and played attempts to do just that, place frets at the perfect pitch location for each string at each note. They are heck to play if you have not trained on one for a while. The Buzz Fretin system is a compromise between indiviual noted frets for each sting an a single fret at a tempered position.

This debate has been going on for ever and untill we eliminate differnt dia. strings at basicly the same scale lengh the debate will continue. Any method that brings a guitar in to tune at near equal temperment is valid.

The adverage human ear can not hear 4 cents differance in pitch. There are those that can hear 1/2 cent differance. But not many and far less than claim to.MichaelP38781.8775231481

I've had a comment about tuning forks not being a reliable source of reference because they are made of steel ( shrink and grow with temp. changes )

I always keep mine next to my body so as to keep it at a consistant temperature/pitch

KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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[QUOTE=MichaelP] Both adjusting the nut and the saddle do one of two things to the scale length, "make longer or make it shorter"..[/QUOTE]
Not quite true, Michael. Those adjustments change the STRING length. The scale length remains the same. As you know, the placement of the frets is based on a mathematical computation that divides the octave into twelve equal half-steps. This would work quite well if the strings rested flat on all the frets at all times. In practice, though, the strings are at varying distances from the frets, and are "stiffer" near their break points (nut and saddle), so they stretch differently depending on where they're fretted. Builders discovered some time ago that if they moved the saddle farther from the nut, the lengthened string would compensate for the "tightness" of the fretted string as it gets closer to the saddle, making the pitch flatter. This creates a problem at the other end of the fingerboard, though. When the string is lengthened by moving the saddle, it requires more tension to pull the open string to its desired pitch, and that means more pressure (more stretch) is needed to fret it near the nut, which sharpens the pitch in relation to the open string. Moving the nut toward the first fret shortens the string length, meaning less tension is needed to bring the open string to pitch, and less stretch is required to fret it near the nut, lessening its tendency to play sharp. You may also find that you then need a bit less compensation at the saddle, which will also shorten the string's length and tension. That's why such a seemingly small compensation at the nut works.

[QUOTE=MichaelP] The guitar, unlike the piano is by nature harmonically flawed. [/QUOTE]
Actually, the piano is, too. Equal temperament carries with it a dissonance that we don't tend to notice if we've never heard a piano tuned to a specific key. It's the aural equivalent of, say, 400 vs. 9000 grit abrasives. BTW, pianos are compensated, too, due to the way we perceive high pitches (the shorter strings are tuned a bit sharp).

Anyone ever do a Earvana nut retrofit ??? I did one on a strat, adn the difference was amazing. i never did actually check where the original nut slot was related to the scale length, ie how close to actual zero fret was it ???, but the earvana nut retro compensates the strings at different points. What blew me away was the G string was shortened by almost 4mm, down to the two Es at abotu 1.5mm, and when checked on the tuner, the first five frets and open strings were abotu as dead on as can be. The open position chords were vastly improved in swwetness. It was a real eye opener.

I did a full comp'd nut on a tele style I built for a client - this guy has as close to perfect pitch of anyone I know, and it took 4 sessions to get it straightened out, including making a whole new nut in the last one - the compensation was slight, I had shortened the fretboard by 1.5mm, adn the deepest comp in a slot from there back was about .5mm or so, B and high E. G was left alone, and then the A and low E went back a smidge. It had to be done so that when he uses his rack tuner on stage, the tuner and the comp give him as close as can be in silence, ie no amp, with no tweaking the G or B to sweeten it at all after that, just hit the next tune.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

using the term shorten the scale was a misnomer and I did over simplify.

I have used Earvana and find it very lacking for several reasons. The worst, in my opinion, is the two set screws and the fact that it is pre compensated. You loosen the screws (2) and the whole thing moves...changing the other string compensations as you adjust anyone particular string. Second, it's made of plastic...yuck!

I believe you must compensate both the nut and saddle. As Mike Doolin states ... you can get pretty close doing this. Anyone wanting to really learn more should read his article. He's right on. Sorry I don't have the url. It is in the OLF archives tho.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

One last thought about intonnating the fingerboard at the nut. It has occured to me that shaving 1/64 off the fingerboard may only serve to bring the guitar back into tune once the nut is rounded slightly. In other words the acutual spot the string rest on the nut can easiy be 1/64 from the zero fret location.

I'm not sure what that means to all the carefuly done calculations, but in reality it may be true more often than not.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

In a properly cut nut slot, the break off point will be right at the fingerboard edge of the nut. If it isn't, then the nut was not made right. Mark Swanson38782.6414930556

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

[QUOTE=TonyKarol]   Anyone ever do a Earvana nut retrofit ???[/QUOTE]
I put one on an electric, too--an LTD that was maddeningly out of tune on the first four frets. I cringed at putting plastic and screws where bone should go, but it made the guitar playable, and that's a good thing!

yep. Ihave had several guitars come into my shope that the owner widdend the slot for larger stings and did not know how to make a proper slot. some moved the brake point back as much as 3/32". New nut easy fix. an hour and a halfs work from start to finish.cha-ching, money in the bank

[QUOTE=MichaelP] using the term shorten the scale was a misnomer and I did over simplify.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I thought that was probably the case. I was just feeling verbose.

[QUOTE=CarltonM] [QUOTE=MichaelP] using the term shorten the scale was a misnomer and I did over simplify.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I thought that was probably the case. I was just feeling verbose. [/QUOTE]

Oh I knew! I never took it any other way I guess my main point was that both methods have benefits and shortcomings and that a combination may be the best answer. I have not done the nut mainly because I am still perfecting my technique at the saddle. But have understood and been approaching the idea of moving my nut in for a while just have not got around to it.

[QUOTE=MichaelP] But have understood and been approaching the idea of moving my nut in for a while just have not got around to it.[/QUOTE]
Though I can't think of who gave it right now, I remember a GAL lecture from a few years ago that was printed in their "American Lutherie" magazine. The well-respected lecturer was talking about nut intonation, and though he elaborated on individual string compensation, he said that he had found instant improvement by just shortening the fingerboard uniformly at the nut end. Lutherie magic!

[QUOTE=Mark Swanson] In a properly cut nut slot, the break off point will be right at the fingerboard edge of the nut. If it isn't, then the nut was not made right. [/QUOTE]

Shucks, right when I thought I was on to something....

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust