Official Luthiers Forum!

So the rather ubiquitous bwb laminated wood purfling, generally sold by the likes of Stewmac, LMI, Allied, etc. for around 3-4 dollars a piece (30-ish inches long), and here's what I got from Aliexpress:



They are 16.50 plus shipping per 50. I got 100 of this, 40 kerfed linings, and 2 sets of abalone rosettes (which is absolutely gorgeous!! Much better than the stuff sold by Inlaidartist), grand total of 80-ish dollars.

When I have gotten the purfling from Aliexpress in the past, the black were not black, but rather has a hint of grey and is just not as well dyed as the stuff you could buy from Stewmac/LMI. I lived with it, but if I had a commission I get the stuff from LMI because I know they are good.

But as you can see in the photo, what I have here, at 50 cents per purfling, is basically indistinguishable from the stuff you can buy from LMI!

Here are 2 pictures of a past build that used both stuff from LMI and Aliexpress, with the current purfling overlaid over it:



The peghead purfling contains stuff I had bought from Aliexpress in 2013. Over it is what I just received.



The rosette came from LMI. I know this because I never seen bwbwb strips from Aliexpress (one of the biggest problem with the site, poor selection, only stuff in common use around Chinese factories, nothing fancy). Look at the color of both, they are indistinguishable. It's hard to tell in the picture but the old Aliexpress purfling had rather inconsistent thickness (it could be that the purfling was intended for violins) and the black was not very black at all.

The Chinese are getting better and better everyday, but they have not raised their prices, yet. I'm sure we'll start hearing about luthiers coming out of China making stuff as good as American luthiers.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I've been happy with the BWB purlfing I have from China, used it in my last 5 guitars.
Bought 100 for about $24 including shipping to UK.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Tai and Collin - Have you measured the purflings for dimensional consistency? Even the purflings from StewMac and LMI have some variation in thickness and height - in the range of plus or minus 0.002" from the specified thickness value, for example.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

It's wood... it would be unreasonable to expect machinist precision out of what is basically sanded wood.

Make the slot a little tight and there won't be gaps.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I take this to mean that the answer to my question is no, you have not measured the purflings for dimensional consistency.

IMO, it's entirely reasonable to expect dimensional consistency. Variation in thickness of 4 or 5 thousandths along the the length of a piece of purfling or between pieces of purfling can mean the difference between an excellent fit and a so-so fit. I always measure purflings before using them so I know exactly what I'm working with before routing binding/purfling channels. That's one reason I don't get gaps at all.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I’ve found the ones from Gurian seem to be pretty consistent. Is that who you use Jay?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Nominally 1.3mm, I measure all of mine during fitting, and find a variation of up to 0.04mm (0.00156") i.e. 1.28-1.32 mm
I thickness them to1.28/1.29 with a shop made veneer thicknesser, working on alternate sides.
I do find the occasional join in the black layers, and have learnt to keep that away from the waist area.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Most of the purflings I use come from StewMac and it wouldn't surprise me if they get them from Gurian. In my experience, StewMac's purflings are pretty consistent. One of the purflings I've used a lot is the b/w/b which is supposed to be 0.060" thick. I've occasionally found it to be 0.060". Most pieces have been 0.058", but different pieces can fall in the range of 0.056 to 0.060. Individual pieces have been very consistent in thickness along their length. The heights have been more variable from piece to piece ranging from 0.098 to 0.110 tall and there can be significant variation within that range along the length of individual pieces.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I think that should be 0.00156", but that would be at least as good as what I've been seeing with the StewMac purfling.

I don't have a way to adjust the thickness so I make pairs of purfling pieces that are the same thickness when installing the purfling on the top or back.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Someone gave me a bunch of cigar boxes that I have been turning into cigar box instruments. They are fun little projects I don't want to invest a lot of time in, but I do want to make good sounding, playable instruments and not just wall hangers. I checked eBay for what parts are available premade by the Chinese. I was able to find necks and fretted fingerboards for under $10 and bridges for around a buck and a half. The fret spacing on the fingerboards was accurate and the frets were well seated and finished. The neck had a scarfed peghead and oversized tuner holes which I had to plug and redrill for the tuners I had, but was also reasonably well made. The parts appear to be CNC made and with the shipping advantage the Chinese have the price is hard to beat.
I replace the bottoms of the boxes with spruce and save the art work on the tops (which becomes the back), and leave the boxes openable so people can store stuff inside them (sheet music, picks, cigars, other smoking materials, or what not) when not being played.

Always cut the slot relative to material thickness plus extra relative to inherent swell PER how many wood layers in the purfling. Water emulsion-based glue will swell the purfling to fit, and take care of a couple thou of variance. Making it tight increases the chances for swell pressure to push on the binding.

I'm going to have to call you on this. In the "luthier suppliers vs everyone else" thread you claimed the following

"So what I offer is a guitar that's as good as, if not better than a Martin but at much lower prices"

If you are making guitars with gaps in the binding like you show in this photo. Then you are NOT making guitars on par with the cheapest bound Martin or even the overseas Ibanez acoustics. If you want to use cheap sources then by all means use them. But from your past few threads it looks like you're just out to slap people who spend more than you do. That is a waste of time on your part. Use your sources and build guitars, at the end of the day nobody is going to care how much you paid for the binding/purfling material you used.

Do you have anything better to do than to sit there and judge a person's small detail as unworthy?

What do you have against me?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

What do you have against people that spend more money than you do?

I have nothing against that, but you have certainly taken offense

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Incorrect, I'm just calling you on your bs. If I was offended I would've just ignored your posts and not bothered to respond. I took the time to write a reply on both threads for the following reasons.

1. You are complaining and showing your cheap nature over a few dollars.
2. You are claiming something that is false. You are not building guitars that are on par with Martin if the details like the binding are anything like in that picture.

You're skill level judging from your posts is someone who has some experience as a machinist. That's great, those radius blocks you made before were really cool. But you're claiming to be making guitars that are on par with something that is far superior to your work.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make good guitars. In fact if you post up a full picture of one you've made then your work should speak for itself.

No, this is personal attack.

As far as I know, many Martins don't even have bindings on headstock, and those that do it's often plastic binding where gaps are easy to deal with, plus they are not "hand made" guitar. Though I suspect customers don't really care as long as it sounds good. I never played a Martin except for those Mexican ones (that sounds meh at best) but those ones with bound headstock also cost a lot, like 5000-ish dollars. Martin D28 doesn't have a bound headstock.

Gibsons have bound headstock and the prices aren't as high as Martins, but most modern Gibsons I played sounded mediocre at best and build quality is not all that good, not to mention headstock that likes to break.

Please, if you have a grudge against me or feel like calling me out on something, do it in PM.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

It is not personal simply because you got offended at me calling you out. Don't play the victim when you're the one in the wrong. If it was personal I'd sent you a PM, this is not personal.



You get what you pay for.

D-41 headstock. Starting price for a new D41 is 3599$ as of 2019


J-40 Headstock Starting price 3299$. Older ones can be had for as little as 2199$ as of 2019


D42 Headstock. Starting price new 5799$


Martin does automate alot of their processes, it's the only way they can make guitars for the many dozens of dealers they have. You still haven't posted any of your work to compare to these Martins. If you can't do that then you're full of yourself.



Gibsons do not all have bound headstocks. Compared to Martin they are about on par with the price point for a bound headstock model. The J200 standard and up has a bound headstock. The majority of Gibson's acoustic standard models do not have binding. Gibson makes guitars to a different standard than Martin.

J45 Standard


Les Paul Standard


If you've only played the Mexican made Martins then how many Gibson's have you played? Gibson isn't as well made as Martin in many respects but there do exist models with some great qualities and tone. There are many Gibson models that are the exact same price as Martin if not more. A 2019 J200 Standard will cost you more than 5K. A J200 Vintage new will cost you more than 6.

You simply do not know what you're talking about. If you get into this business with your current mindset you are going to be flat broke in a very short time.

This is not a grudge. You made a public post about something that is clearly not true. I am responding to it in public which is the same fashion you presented it to begin with. If you don't want people questioning you or your skills in public, then don't make them public.

Let me put it this way. Would you prefer that everyone lie to you and tell you that you're just as skilled as the Martin luthiers? Or Gibson? Only to get into the business and find out very quickly just how competitive, brutal, and challenging things are? What would you say then? You'd be wondering why nobody told you the truth. It is better to find out that you suck at something before it bites you to the point where you can no longer support yourself or your family.

I have no real plans to try to make money in this craft but occasionally I wax philosophic about what it might look like in the future. I keep coming back to this point and, fortunately, I can recognize my own ignorance. Frankly, I don't have a well formed understanding of where my current work compares to the market. Clearly, I understand that I need to improve but I don't have a good idea of what level I am at. It is really difficult to compare your work to others because 1) we are often blinded to our own biases, 2) much of the time it is apples to oranges comparisons (I know I'm not going to compete with the great hand builders and my work is different than the commercial offerings) and 3) it can be difficult to know what to look for when you don't know what you don't know. I am constantly realizing that there are things that I never even thought to compare.

I recently donated a guitar to a charity raffle and they wanted an estimate of the value of the instrument. I rally had no idea. It was better than the lower end of the commercial market offerings but certainly not a Bourgeois either. Going for it, was hand made care and the "something different" factor. Working against i,t was the lack of any kind of name recognition and nontraditional materials. Notice that this doesn't even include tone. I asked a guy at a local guitar shop who really (seemed to) liked it but it was difficult for him to guess at what price point he would be able to sell it. He sells guitars in the $1,000 to $20,000 range. I told him to be brutally honest and assured him I would not be offended by whatever his opinion was. I think he believed that but was still finding it difficult to guess.

With that in mind, I would definitely want to know where I stack up before if I was trying to feed myself. I should post more work here. When I have done it, I have appreciated the constructive criticism more than the compliments. At least the criticism has been more helpful. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

"Would you prefer that everyone lie to you and tell you that you're just as skilled as the Martin luthiers?"
Hi Dan,
It is quite likely that Tai is more skillful than the majority of Martin's "luthiers", many of whom have never built a complete guitar. Not a knock on them, but they generally are taught to do one or two things very well as I understand it. And if IIRC Tai has lived in the great state of Texas, and so may have seen a few Gibson's, Martin's, and other iconic American brands.
One thing you notice on the Martin pegheads you show is that the binding -wraps around- the peghead and avoids making joints that are critical to a "good look". It is a smart way to do things in a production environment, as is using CNC and all the tooling available to a large company.
I don't know how Mr. Fu's guitars compare to those of Martin's production or of your's for that matter, but some of the guitars I've seen and played by members of this forum have been truly outstanding. Many of the "first guitars" I've seen people build with the help of information gleaned from the members also appear quite well done. I think keeping a supportive and positive attitude for the community at large is better than looking for and pointing out shortcomings you may believe someone has.

And fact is, everyone has shortcomings. Nobody is perfect.

It's those imperfections that make hand made guitars so attractive in the first place.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Really?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Clay, you do make some good points and I could rephrase what I've said.

Let me clarify my viewpoint. Tai has made multiple statements that seem to indicate a "i already know it all attitude". In his own words to me he stated he has made 8 guitars so far. He has also deflected any questioning of his statements.

He told me via PM "if you truly care perhaps you can show me how to improve?" I responded by recommending he look into attending the Galloup school of luthierie to help hone his skills. His response was "I actually prefer repairs. Easier sell this way and it teaches me far more than any Galloup school will."

He wanted my opinion, got it, and then told me he already knew everything. I bring this up because I've seen way too many guys over the years get into building full time and then wind up bankrupt broken and stressed out. The problem was consistently that their friends always told them what they built was "amazing" and "better than a Gibson or Martin". Nobody ever told them the truth or questioned them. I have absolutely no issue with Tai building guitars or making tools. I'd actually have alot of use in my shop for those milled radius sanding blocks he showed on here some time back. That kind of thing is great. What isn't great is being delusional with yourself and setting yourself up for failure. Also when you claim something that is clearly not true we call that lying and I do not accept or encourage that in any field.

This is not personal, we have some guys on here that have really helped me by being direct and no bs. I am not inclined to be encouraging to someone that does not want any actual help and seems to show that he knows everything.

Stop it. Just stop

I've made every effort to apologize if I were lying, intentionally or not about where I am at, but you are determined to take every single word I say out of context to make you look good and make me look bad.

You have a problem with me, or with luthiers that are less than perfect? You expect every luthiers to be on the level of Somiygi otherwise he's a liar and a cheat?

I don't know if you're trying to "tough love" or you're trying to get everyone to attend Galloup's? Which by the way it is hugely impractical for me to do so since I am in Taiwan, not the US and would require me to pull up roots, somehow get a visa to stay for one year (or more), and just to learn to build a few guitars? There are other countries offering luthier classes, including Taiwan. Some of them have gone to Galloup's. It also cost tens of thousands of dollars, of which you can't simply just fill out FAFSA and get Stafford loans to pay tuition and living expenses (given all the useless degrees that people get, maybe you should be able to get Pell grants and Stafford loans to attend Galloup's).

But then again I'll just spill my heart out, try to be as honest and up front as I can, and you'll just take what I just said above and label me a liar and a cheat. Or perhaps your standard is just impossibly high and I can't imagine someone wanting to be your students. They'd quit in a few weeks.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I agree that the miter in the photo is a bit sloppy, but you're condemning a person's entire body of work based on that one miter. Your attacks have been relentless and are bordering on an apparent bias. Someone needs to stand up for Tai and I will be happy to do that.