Official Luthiers Forum!

Is it common to take off .010 - .015 of fret height on a ski ramp?

Seems like I've had to take off this much on a few bolt ons, but now I find myself doing it on an epiphone 335. Has anyone ever just decided to take the frets off and take it out of the board?

Just wondering if this is pretty normal for other people. It's a lot of grinding and recrowning! I'm not only trying to level, but also create a Little Fall away. At least a couple thou. How much fall away is ideal?

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk

_________________
Pat

Refrets are a great way to tune up a fretboard. Personally I don't build fall away into a guitar. I don't see the point. I like it dead flat from nut to last fret and then dial in the relief. I've heard it said that fall away is to help with future distortion of the guitar, that makes sense I guess but probably not in the case of a 335.

My understanding is that fall away is to follow the Arc of the vibrating string. just like the low spot between 1 and 12 when you dial in the neck relief there would be another arc from 12 to bridge with the low spot being near the last frets.

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk

_________________
Pat

If there is a ski ramp and I can get rid of it without losing too much height on the frets then I will go ahead and level the frets. I was taught to put in a bit of fall away and I still like to do so, generally tapering from 0 at the 12th fret to around 0.004" or so at the last fret. It has nothing to do with future structural movement, it just makes it possible to get a lower action and reduce any buzzing when fretting up the neck.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'd certainly want to inspect things closely to see what is going on with the instrument - a full-up ski ramp on a 335 seems a little unusual. There are options, depending on the player and the guitar:

- If the instrument is wearing something like Dunlop 6105 wire in nice shape (i.e., about 0.095" x 0.047" and leveled to 0.045" or so), and the player does very little work above the body fret (the 19th fret on a standard 22 fret 335 design), one option is to zero out the existing relief and see what would be required on the 19-22 fret section to get everything level; if less than 0.010" at the 22nd, cut in 0.003"-0.004" of relief in 1-18, and cut in the 0.007"-0.009" remaining to remove on the 22nd fret. This would likely run to at 1.6 hours ($165 for this area) with the level/crown/polish and setup work needed.

- Remove what will likely be 8 frets (15 and higher), cut the ramp to level, and refret. Typical charge on a partial is $25 per fret plus setup work ($230)

- Refret at what is usually about $280-$300 in nickel silver and closer to $360 in stainless. If there is significant fret wear otherwise, that might make sense and ultimately be a lower-cost approach that fixing the ramp issue now and having to go in for another partial on 5-14 in a few more years.

On fall-away: conventionally-built acoustics will see flattening of the back and top distortion that will eventually require a neck reset. If the extension is dead level reference the unloaded fret plane, and the top above the upper bout is quite stiff and resists distortion, there is a better than average chance that in 10-15 years, the guitar will have developed a bit of a ramp and require some work if player and action dictate.

We usually cut in 0.010"-0.015" (depending on body size and scale length) on full body and 12 fretters, and 0.007"-010" on cutaways. Up to 0.005" of that fall-away disappears in the first six months of string-up on new guitars, depending on body size, scale, etc. (we build in what is a traditional Martin & Gibson approach, so see the same 'flaws' that those marques see over time).

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

You need to set up the geometry before the top goes on
here is how I set that up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz6xzVRA51E&t=643s
on the setting of the neck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNcbA1P95KE&t=8s

you can also manipulate the upper bouts by putting a slight radius on the transverse brace.

Now when you are working on a guitar there is a process to make sure you do it correctly.
A straighten the neck before you do anything
So with the neck striaght as possible now look at the neck for camber and twist.
B If you have an up rise did you check your humidity. Most times this is the culprit and you will end up doing more harm
than good.
C With RH proper and the neck stable use a true straight edge. If you don't have one planer blades make affordable
substitutes.

Do you have to remove ski noses yes but be sure you Identify the cause before doing anything.
Ask question some of us do this for a living and have lots of experience to share.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

John that is wise advice for an acoustic guitar but he's talking about a 335 where the neck is like a 2x4 joined to the body. The entire length of the fret board is attached to the entire length of the neck so the whole thing is a unit. Like Woodie said if there is a ski ramp there then it's not your typical problem. Having said that though many acoustic guitars are being built in a similar 'one piece' manor which I would say is even less a concern for fall away. I guess I can see the argument for fall away on a long electric neck where one might play beyond the range of relieve in the neck and the fall away acts as a sort of secondary relief but again I don't see that as necessary for acoustic guitars. But that's just me, I like 'em nice and flat.

I'm dealing with a Collings D-1 in mahogany and adi with a varnish finish this AM...the owner had a swap to higher SS frets done by another shop just after he bought it in 2016 and insisted on a dead-flat extension from the luthier, as he spends a lot of time above the 14th fret. Three years on, I'm taking off a lot of very tough stainless fret wire to address what is an obvious kick-up...I'm at just 33 thou at the 20th, and the player loves drop tunings and low action. A partial would have made more sense, but not in the cards. I understand a flat board, but in my limited experience, every builder is convinced that his or her necks will never move, and unfortunately, not all of them find that to be the case beyond the warranty timeframe.

Other stuff on the plate for today is the 1934 Carson Robinson/Kalamazoo basket case rebuild, two neck resets (I think I am doing the Guild, with the boss handling the Martin), and whatever comes in before Sunday AM.

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

yes I know what he is dealing with and at the end of the post there are a few things he needs to do before making any adjustments. I had a tele in the shop that had a broken truss rod so
A check mechanics
B rule out Humidity

then make adjustments as needed. There is no one perfect technique when dealing with existing instruments.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Pat ski ramps are very common in the electric guitar world. I would say that most Fender style bolt-on necks develop them and this is not exclusive to Fender.

I didn't read all the other posts except for a few at the top of the page so my apologies if I don't provide attribution to anything already contributed.

On a 335 style guitar a ski ramp is also not uncommon especially on an Epiphone. Even Les Pauls can develop ski ramps although like a 335 it's a bit unusual. Remember no-one ever brings us anything because everything is honky dory.

Step one is always straightening the neck to as close as you can get to perfectly straight with the rod and then marking with bluing and hitting the fret tops with a long, flattened on a calibrated surface plate leveling beam and reading where you are hitting. This is your road map to fixing this individual instrument, where the ink remains and where it's been removed will tell you where this fret plane needs to be leveled, recrowned, etc.

Be ready to work your butt off milling down that ski ramp, .010 - .015 is too much and it should be flattened out. We have files that we've purchased for straightness and then glued to shop-made handles for the heavy lifting fret grinding. A piece of masking tape on one end of the file and keeping that masking tape over the 12th fret generally speaking while grinding the last frets level is how we do it. Once it's level with the rest of the fret plane using the same technique but this time with short leveling beams and 120 and later 220 we mill in fall away.

How much? When I was building I shot for between .010 and .015" just as Mario does. In the repair world you don't need to go that much. It's an added benefit and crucial for very low action shredder type players on electrics. 335's are often used for jazz too and many jazz players can want and use uber low action and fall away helps with this too.

Lastly fall-away is desirable and in our view part of the value add of taking your instrument to a professional Luthier. It's milled in by many of us as well as some of the top manufacturers such as Collings. Again for uber low action players who do more than cowboy chords and use the entire neck it's essential to their playing style.

Feel free to PM or call me at the shop if you have any questions or need any help I'm happy to walk you though it.

Woodie, thanks for the insight and literal menu of options! Also, thanks for the real time pricing. (Albeit Beltway pricing with all those Lobbyists and bureaucrats wallowing in cash and the like)

Are you saying milling in relief on 1-18 because that would partially address the ski ramp height? Interesting. Is that because under tension, getting relief from string pull/truss rod would cause the whole lower fretboard area to rise and form a plane with the last fret? It seems like I encounter that often when a guitar comes in and I examine it under tension with a straight edge and almost always there will be a plane from the first to last fret. Is that normal, under tension, even on a perfectly milled Fret plane?


Pat

_________________
Pat

Thank you for your willingness to share your personal experience John!


Pat

_________________
Pat

That's a very interesting and helpful thread. Thanks to all contributors.


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse

_________________
Pierre Castonguay

Hesh, thanks for all the solid advice and your offer! I like your idea with the file and tape.

You're right, that is a lot of work. I took off about 12 thou and recrowned those jumbos. Pert near inspired me to get some 150g diamonds, so forking over more Benjamins to Ohio. I like that they take PayPal, it feels more like Monopoly money that way. Lol

Sent from my SM-N960U1 using Tapatalk

_________________
Pat