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Hi All

I am making my first classical based on a set of plans I have for a 1968 Concert sized Fleta, the plans are pretty good, but I can't establish from them the radius of the top and back plates.

I wondered if anyone had any idea of what they might have used.

Hey Russel the only Fleta stuff I have is in Courtnal's book. Do you have it? If so it must not be mentioned there. If you don't I will look and see if it is mentioned.

Shane

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Canada

Thanks Shane

I don't have the book, the plans I have I believe came from the book.

I don't think Courtnal's book mentions radius's.

At least I haven't noticed them.

There was a recent discussion on Fleta bridge measurements over at the MIMF. There a couple of guys recently held/played a 58 Fleta at Brune's FP class.

You might ask over there. I'm sure they didn't measure it but they might give you an idea..

Just a thought

And if you find out for sure, let us know.RCoates38810.8656597222

Russel, Graham is right. No radii are mentioned but there is a reason for that. Here is a picture of the solara plan from the book:



This plan indicates that the top plate is actually flat around the edges with the egg shaped area that encopasses the lower bout and the bridge area scooped out 2mm but not to the outside edge of the guitar. Courtnal does talk about this as a method of ensuring a good joint at the linings also.

I am a long ways away from knowing anything that I am talking about here but some of my classical building customers have told me that they will use 30 foot radius for the top and some will also use that for the back or may go to 25 foot for the back...just in case you want to use a dish, these are the radii I get orders for for the dishes I make and sell. The Fleta guitar is also almost flat in taper with the depth outside at 100mm at the tail, 98 mm at the tail end of the soundhole and 96mm at the heel.

I hope that helps!

Shane

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Canada

The Brune's should be able to give you very detailed information about the Fleta guitars. They will also tell you that the Courtnall plans of the Fleta guitar are not true to the original design. With that said I use a Fleta inspired fan brace design on my cedar top classicals and love the results. I use a 15 ft. back radius.

I've also heard (but don't know where) that the Fleta has a 15' back and a 25' front. I'm not sure where you could confirm this.

John

Thanks Everyone

I really appreciate you all taking the trouble, 25' and 15' quite suits me.

Many Thanks

Russ

I build in the spanish metod using a dished solera. In general a hand contoured solera looks mostly like what Courtnal depicted but there is no hard and fast rule as to how to radius the dish. It is not a consistent arc as would be done when using a radius dish in a go bar deck to brace and then sanding a radius into the sides to match as done with steel strings. Mine is contoured to within about about 10mm of the edge.

My side profile is straight for the top with the radiused section being roughly in the same area as shown in the drawing above.

I do use a 30'top and a 15'back as my guide for contouring braces but the way I build is that my solera has a depth of close to 4mm at the deepest point in the center. I use hot hide glue and do a rub joint pressing braces against the top into my solera and then hold each in place for about a minute or so until the hide glue sets up. There is some springback so what I end up with is about 2mm and is very close to a 30' top (although not a complete radius as mentioned above).

I started building back in the 70's and at that time the only book I had to go by was A.P. Sharpe's how to make a spanish guitar which was less than 50 pages, had very few pictures and drawings but covered all the basics.

I was struggling to get the dome in the top so at that time I was living and working in New York and there were a number of good builders around who would put up with people coming in and asking questions. Michael Gurian was building and had people like Thomas Humphrey and William Cumpiano working for him building classical and steel string, Ken Parker was building acoustic archtops, Jimmy D'Aquisto was building archtops, John Monteleone was building mostly mandolins, and lots of others.

Eugene Clark was one of the best classical builders in New York at that time and lots of people would bring their vintage and historical classical guitars to him to repair. He was very accomodating and was the one that showed me the rub joint hide glue method and because it was so straight forward and traditional spanish construction, is what I still use.

Regarding Courtnall's book, you really have to look at it as two different books in one. First as a look at famous builders and what is characteristic about their guitars, there dimensions and materials, and generally a feel for how their guitars compare with others.

The second part of the book that talks about classical construction techniques is his take on how to build a classical and when taken as that is fine...Every builder does things slightly different and not all is good or in some cases no longer in vogue but all can be learned from so regardless of whether his techniques work for you it is still a good book.

I agree that Courtnall's book provides a really nice overview of the classical side of the building experience. As a newbie, it has been my first reference (along with David Schramm's Online Apprentice course) to this side of the building experience.

I have heard it said (over on MIMF again, I think) that some of Courtnall's plantillas for the famous builders are not terribly accurate or representative, but I couldn't possibly say if that concern is real. (and of course someone else's exact guitar body shape should only be guidance for you, anyway).

There are techniques in the book that should make a cautious newbie's blood run cold. Sawing fret slots AFTER the fingerboard is tapered? Run! Run!

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=John Elshaw] I've also heard (but don't know where) that the
Fleta has a 15' back and a 25' front. I'm not sure where you could
confirm this.

John[/QUOTE]

This sounds like typical for alot of classicals and its what I use on mine.

[QUOTE=jtkirby]

There are techniques in the book that should make a cautious newbie's
blood run cold. Sawing fret slots AFTER the fingerboard is tapered? Run!
Run!

[/QUOTE]

Each to his own...in his book Jim Williams cuts fret slots and puts in the
frets before gluing same onto the neck. Getting the 12th to 19th frets in
is a lot easier with the fretboard lying flat on a bench.

Hi Martin,

I have installed most of the frets before gluing to the neck with good success. There is albeit a rather ungainly curve before it is clamped into place.

Tim

Just thought I'd add a few tidbits to the discussion.

I have built classicals using a 28 ft. radius top dish and a 20 ft. radius back dish, and I've built them using a 25 ft. top dish and 15 ft. back dish.

I keep in mind the fact that the primary reason for installing a slight arch in the top and the back is to allow for movement as the environmental humidity fluctuates. For this reason, I have come to prefer the 25/15 setup.

I know a guy who uses a solera for building his classicals, and his has a pronounced dish. The tops of his guitars show a noticeable arch. They also sound rather thumpy, even though he uses top quality woods and braces them properly. I suspect the thumpy sound of his guitars is due to the pronounced arch that he installs. Because of this, I tend to think that the 25/15 combination is probably as far as I'd want to take it.

Best,

Michael

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