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Recently I made my first soprano uke. I made a trial saddle with ebony or ABW to verify compensation, then made the bone saddle.

I ran across Jose Oribe's newer web site. He seems to have cross-over guitars the opposite way, i.e. steel string guitars with classical body and dimensions. I presume the interior is braced differently than a classical.

John, no problem with the units, at least for me; I spent my career working with both.

Alan, thanks for weighing in. Helpful info as always, and, as usual, these pesky acoustic things are more complex than we'd like.

Looks like I'm at a 1 7/8" minimum nut.

I suppose I can stick with the Ramirez string spacing at the bridge of 2.24" unless someone has a compelling argument?

Thanks everyone for taking the time to go through this, it's super helpful!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

The old gut strung Martin's and many of the romantic guitars used 1 7/8th inch nuts - but again that was -gut- strings.
I usually use 2 3/8th inch+ spacing at the saddle for nylon, but no compelling reason. Many of the old guitars do the same.

I have 57 mm string spacing so I am OK with 2.24"

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Ok, I'm back on this. I like doing this kind of planning. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

I'd like to see if I can move this around to do a 13 Fret with a 26.0" scale. The saddle would have to come towards the soundhole about 0.8". Not knowing much about classical bracing and such I'm wondering if it would be a big deal. I've found that moving things around a bit on steel strings isn't a big deal.

Looks like I have several options if I want to go to 13-frets.

Option 1. Leave bracing and soundhole as is and just move the bridge patch forward 0.8". Since the fan braces appear to somewhat symmetrical around the bridge I'm not sure if that would be optimal.

Option 2. Move the bridge patch forward 0.8" and also shift soundhole and bracing xx" closer to the body join.

Right now I'm thinking of using option 2 with xx" being 0.5".

Appreciate the thoughts. Here's a shot of top with the saddle locations marked in red.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

The Ramirez guitar has a scale length of 660 mm, whereas modern classicals tend to be 650. Change the scale length, you won’t have to change the bridge patch placement much at all. (You’ll find strings fit better as well, since some brands are stingy with length — ask how I know).


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Hi Tim, I had looked at using the 650mm (25.59") scale and, yes, for a 12-fret 650mm the bridge patch only moves 0.27". The 26" scale (Ramirez is 26.125") was inspired by a crossover 26" done by Michael Colbert with that scale and using D'Addario EJ44 ProArte strings. My general approach when doing something new is to find something I like and do something similar.

I know the difference between long and short scale steel strings but what is the difference between 650mm and 660mm scale for nylon strings. Does it matter?

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Well, given the total lack of response to my last post I suppose my 13-fret idea is a dud. Only reason for that is that I need access to the upper frets; I prefer a 14-fret join but a 13-fret is ok. For some of the stuff I play 12-fret is too tight.

Once again I will step back from the edge and look at the 25.5" 12-fret, especially since this is the first time I am dipping my luthier toe into the classical world. I would consider changing the body shape for a 14-fret but I already have access to a 12-fret Ramirez mold. Guess it will get some kind of a cutaway so I can get access to the higher frets, probably scooped like Alan Carruth's cause I really like that look.

Thanks all, I do appreciate the discussion!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

It matters but both 650 and 660 mm are standard classical. 655 mm is used a lot in flamenco. One rule of thumb I heard that one needs at least a 5 mm scale length change to really feel it. 10 mm is noticeable. I did make on commission a 14 fret join 8 string nylon with a 660 mm scale that worked out. It also had a cutaway. I did not have a problem playing it (any more than I usually have).

https://www.harvestmoonguitars.com/bocote%208%20string1.htm

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

In theory longer strings should work better, at least up to a point. Ideally the bending stiffness of the string should be negligible relative to the tension to minimize inharmonicity in the higher partials; the longer the string the more likely this is to be the case assuming the same string diameter. With nylon strings you start running up against the elastic limits of the material, although this varies depending on the type of nylon. Most nylons start to creep at around 65% of their ultimate theoretical breaking strength, and that can set in at around 660 mm I believe.

There is a useful little book, "The Healthy Guitar", by Alicia Kopfstein-Penk that goes into the question of choosing scale length. She struggled for years to make the stretches, hoping that practice would make perfect. Then she realized that at 5'2" she was never going to reach the top shelf in the kitchen without a ladder, no mater how much she practiced. She worked out a process for figuring out the scale length that would fit her hand, and went looking for somebody who would make the guitar. I've used her method with several students, and find it a bit conservative, in the sense that it tends to advise using a shorter scale than may be strictly necessary, but then, none of them was trying for a concert career either.

John - The 8 string came out really nice! Not sure what I could do with 8 strings, I have enough trouble with 6. Your comment about discernable lengths in scale length makes me think that as a steel string player then the 650mm (25.59") scale length probably makes more sense for me anyway, at least for a first foray into the nylon string world.

Alan - thanks for giving me new information; as always another useful nugget! I believe I bought "The Healthy Guitar" a long time ago when I was just getting into this (along with "Left-Brain Lutherie"). I will have to see if I can find it and reread it, I'm sure it will mean a lot more to me now.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Not a push for 8 strings just an example of using a longer scale length with a nylon string crossover to deal with your 13 fret join.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

John - didn't think you were pushing 8 strings - the people that play those well are somewhat uncommon. The one you made is really nice!

I've given up on the 13-fret for this one and will just put in a cutaway for access to the upper frets. Scale will be 25.5" so I can use one of Andy's stock fretboards. I'll let you all know how it goes.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

This is my crossover -Jazz Classical model.
It has a carved arched back.

In my experience nylon strings need very little compensation- I use 1/64” with a straight saddle.


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Brad - that's a fine looking guitar, very clean look. Interesting that you used a carved back. I am not planning on putting much compensation into it although I was thinking of a bit more than 1/64", probably double that.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

From another thread… a few days late… but it still counts


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Well crap. This was the wrong thread sorry guys


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No worries - nice looking setup you got there!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"