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Hi all. Several years ago Alaska Specialty Woods jumped into Torrified tops. On their test run they kept pairs of tops, baking one of them. They offered a half dozen or so of these paired sets (torrefied/non-torrefied) to us. I was feeling flush at the time and also was ordering a bunch of other tops, so I jumped in. They've been sitting in my stack, partly waiting for the right build, and partly because the torrefied top seemed to be extremely dark. Like baked all the way through to the point of almost being burnt.

Fast forward to this afternoon and picking a top for a highly figured Bubinga 00 and I thought I'd look at the torrefied top once again. Thinking that perhaps if I ran it through the drum sander it would take off the outer baking and look a little lighter in color.

Nope. Pretty nice chocolate brown all the way through. The attached photo shows the sanded torrefied top sitting on top of the unsanded non-torrefied pair.

So the question is, Is this normal? The Stewmac photo of torrefied vs non-torrefied does show the baked top a little darker. But my band mate has a Collings with a torrefied top that looks almost as light as non. It's definitely unique and could work well for the right build. I thought I'd put it out to you all before bothering ASW.

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Tony Thatcher
Bozeman, Montana

The torrified red spruce I've used (from RC Tonewoods) was definitely darker than un-torrefied red spruce but wasn't near that dark.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I've just finished a guitar with a torrified sitka top from SM, doesn't look as dark as yours does.
The top pic is probably the closer to the color, on my screen anyway, more honey colored than chocolate.
I understand that you can get different "grades" of torrifaction, and some makers claim to be targeting the vintage sound of guitars from a specific age.
I must admit, yours does look pretty "well done".
I seem to remember ASW mentioning varying the recipe in the early days from their torrifaction processer - maybe ask them directly?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Honey is a good description of the torrefied tops I’ve had.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I just sent pix and a message to ASW. They're a good outfit, so I'll see what comes of it.

Cheers!

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Tony Thatcher
Bozeman, Montana

Definitely much darker than any I’ve seen.

I am not experienced with torrified spruce, but while recently touring Appalachian Tonewood, I learned from Luke Blair (one of the owners) that, when they torrify, they only send their spruce to a torrefaction shop that will cook it at a low temperature (170 F.). The spruce that gets cooked at a high temperature winds up being extremely difficult to glue. You might want to ask how your spruce was torrified, and test it before you put too much effort into it.

I bought some of those paired sets too back then but the ones I have are not that dark. I have not had the time to build with those yet. I've used a few from Stew Mac and am working with some now from Old World Tonewood which are not that dark either.

I think your set looks cool though.

I jumped on that deal too (only 1 pair tho). My torrefied set is very dark, like yours.

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-Marcus
http://www.bailieguitars.com
Instagram | YouTube

A agree that this is darker than anything I've ever seen. It even smells somewhat burnt.

I got an immediate reply from Brent (owner) at ASW, which I appreciate. But was a little disappointed. Perhaps it is my learning curve on torrefied wood, but I was hoping for something more helpful for me as a customer. The response was basically, "It's fine. That's just what that piece of wood wanted to do. Deal with it." Full response is below. I will say that tap tones on the cooked and uncooked pieces are remarkably different. The torrefied pieces really have a ring or chime to them that is not present in the uncooked pieces. I think this top will have to go on something other than my lovely set of figured bubinga.

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Tony Thatcher
Bozeman, Montana

I would say that is a reasonable response. I think I remember from back when they pitched this idea that Brent was talking about being careful who they get to cook the wood so as not to over cook it. I think they went with a tonewood cooker with experience.

Nonetheless any of the T-top wood that I have been using from various suppliers has that funny smell to it. IDK that I would call it burnt but perhaps notes of dark chocolate and pairs well with rosewood

Be careful if you do any cross-grain flexing. Torrified spruce is more brittle and it will split pretty easy - I found that out when I was looking for the 'wobbly sheet metal sound' while thicknessing the first torrified top I had.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Amen!

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I don't believe 170 degrees F can be considered torrified, but rather just kiln dried. That is what a steam/heat kiln would operate at to achieve a 160 degree pitch set.
170 degrees celcius is a different story, that would be torrified.

It's certainly possible he said Fahrenheit but meant Celsius, or that I misunderstood him. Either way, the salient point Luke was trying to make when he said this during our tour is that some torrefaction shops cook the wood at too high a temperature for what guitar builders want at the end of the day. The wood cooked at this higher temperature may be useful for other things, but it is hard to work with as instrument wood. So, those who seek torrified wood for instruments should make sure they know how the wood was torrified, or else they can get something they don't want.

It can be hard to find that info out. Not every supplier is willing to put that info out, if they even have it.

I’ve had two batches done on my behalf, the first was more cooked than I was comfortable, the second more to my taste, and unfortunately I’ve forgotten both recipes. It would be good to know what some other people’s time temps and processes were. Sure do love the smell, and on the right project it’s just the ticket.

An FYI.....One of our customers, Dana Bourgious hooked me up with the outfit he now uses for all their torifying. And they do a lot of that. He had used another outfit previous and found that too much was over cooked. I directed the guy to do for us what he does for Dana. I think the darkness of this set in question is from 2 reasons as stated in my reply to the author of the original post. The hard grain that you can see in the non-roasted counterpart, plus the amount of sugar in this particular trees genetic makeup.

Do you guys normally use torrified bracing with the torrified tops or is that not important


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Personally, I stopped using torrefied brace stock, as it’s brittleness was skeeving me out a bit. As well, the stuff I had was both overcooked and riddled with runout, so double whammy.

Can’t say as though I noticed any real tone change. With regular brace wood, the torrefied tops still sounded torrefied.

Same reasoning here - it’s too brittle. I use regular red spruce brace stock.


Steve

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have used T-wood for bracing. I think once it's glued down it's probably pretty good but I have been wondering about it too. Seems like a lot of luthiers do not like using it for reasons mentioned.

I always use torrefied brace stock with torrefied tops.

I've played a guitar for a while that had non-torrefied braces on a torrefied top and it didn't sound as good as fully-torrefied tops.

The non-torrefied wood is not as resonant, so it prevents the torrefied top from vibrating as much as the fully-torrefied tops.

Also, the non-torrefied wood is going to be more sensitive to changes in humidity, so will swell and shrink more than the torrefied wood it's attached to.

WRT it being more brittle, torrefication 'ages' the wood and makes it more delicate. I treat it like it's 300-year-old wood and don't have any problems.