Official Luthiers Forum!

The other thread on fret leveling got me thinking….

Have any of you folks purchased the Bashkin fretting course on Robbie O’Brien’s site? In the course he doesn’t level the frets after install. Instead he meticulously preps the board and then presses the frets, a few at a time, and then clamps with a block caul while the HHG sets up.

After installing the frets he uses a fret rocker to check them and any that might be high are heated and then re-clamped with the caul.

The process lets him put a semi-hemi on the fret ends and polish them all up ahead of time. He shows doing the hemispheric ends by hand, but there is also a tool that Nigel Forester offers, which I purchased, that makes it easy to put the shape on using a drill press and a special filing wheel.




I like the procedure and it has worked great for me on ukes, but now I’m working on a guitar where the stakes are higher.

Just curious if anyone has used this method and what results you achieved?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Without giving too much away, do you find it difficult to cut the frets to length beforehand for this approach?

This is a good question because I think it only works easily for me because I CNC the fretboards and also make a proxy that is exactly the same as the board to be fretted.

The proxy has a .035 slot instead of .024 so that the frets seat in with a light press and pull right back out easily. What I do is cut each fret to width by testing on the proxy. Put the hemisphere end on, polish it up, and then place in a holder with fret numbers labeled on it.

Here’s the catch and I don’t know if I can explain it well but it’s easy enough to do … the fret tang is trimmed back for the bound board. Each fret is pulled over toward my side of the board so the edge of the tang is hitting the edge of the slot. Then I trim the overhang. That same end of the fret is put downward into the holder. When I put the fret into the actual board I pull it out of the holder and make sure the correct fret end is slid all the way over so that the tang is hitting the wall of the slot toward me. Tap each side with a hammer and then set with the press. This was the only way I could get the fret ends to be in a perfect line all the way up the fretboard. I hope that makes sense. Here are a few pics of the proxy and the process…

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Pretty clear and I can see you've got your method sussed out.
Do you feel they're worth the extra effort and time in terms of the feel of the end result?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I do like how they feel and the simplicity of the install. Player feedback so far has been positive.

To be honest, I started down this path because of my own clumsiness. I was often putting little dings and dents in the finish on the side of the fretboard. I spend so much time getting a perfectly shiny finish there and would invariably mess it up somehow during fretting. Most of the time it was a simple buffing fix but other times I’m doing finish repair before it even makes it out of the shop.

I know most people don’t have that issue but I’m very clumsy.

I’ve done a few ukes this way and didn’t have to re-seat any frets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I used to do the process you described in your original post except I used CA instead of HHG. Sylvan Wells taught that method quite a few years ago.

I also used to do semi-hemispherical fret ends. It's not terribly difficult to get the frets the correct length but you do have to take some care. I liked the look but I found over time that if I didn't mention it first not a single player noticed them (only some other luthiers). I finally quit doing them because they took a lot of extra time, no one noticed them and they reduce the usable space on top of the fret available for actually fretting the string (which can be an issue).

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

One of the things putting me off trying them is i'm using a 15 degree fret end bevel these days and finding that little bit more real estate very handy.
That, and the time and general fiddle dee-ness of doing them.
Seen posts that some players don't like the feel of them anyway, "bump bump bump......"
Look great though,

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Fret surface is an interesting one. I was thinking the same (drilled into my head by Hesh and Dave, lol) but I haven’t noticed it at all. I wonder if the tool from Nigel is putting the hemi shape on the very end without as much rounded over as there would be if done by hand?

That being said, I only have tested this with ukes so maybe it will be more apparent with a six string. Good call, I will watch for it.

In terms or difficulty, the tool from Nigel is like 3 second swipe per side, a couple swipes with grey scotchbrite, and then polish. It has to be orders of magnitude faster than doing fret ends by hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

One of his fret ends from the process, from his youtube.
I would guess it starts rounding at least ~ 0.80-0.75 mm from the end?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Seems right. The nature of the tool is that the more perpendicular you go at it with the fret end the less dramatic the round over should be, but it does have to be something, right? When beveling I use 10 degree in a holder. I would say it’s more than that for sure. It’s not as dramatic as 25 like the SM bevel.

Edit to add: Hopefully Nigel will chime in here as he should know specifics of the bevel shape the wheel is making.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

From the video it looks like Nigel holds the fret crown at a slight angle to the wheel to make the hemispherical fret end. If you wanted to preserve more fret end real estate you might hold the tang side of the fret at an angle to the tool and produce a semi demi hemispherical fret end.
Cutting the frets to the exact length before fretting looks like a PITA. I think most players only feel the fret ends on the lower side of the fretboard. Doing hemispherical fret ends on the lower side and conventional angled fret ends (after installation) on the upper side might save some time and trouble and not be too noticeable.
Cutting a groove in a conventional grinding wheel might be a low cost option to the tool Nigel sells

If you are going to do the semi-hemispherical fret ends then a tool like Nigel sells the way to go. I did mine before Nigel's were available so I made one out of a laminated cardboard sharpening wheel by cutting the correctly-shaped groove into wheel then gluing on some carborundum to do the cutting.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm sure what Nigel has on offer would be superior to most other iterations of something similar, but I don't think I could recover the cost in the time I have left on the planet for the number of fret jobs I will be doing. For a professional repair shop it is probably economically feasible.
I may try grooving a grinding wheel to see how that does. How well did the carborundum on cardboard work? Lapidary suppliers sell diamond grinding powder, but I'm not sure what you would glue it with to create a strong bond to the substrate.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/223403840657?h ... dXbeR7W8QQ

I used the stuff from one of these kits I had laying around - price these guys want is absolutely stupid though.

https://smile.amazon.com/Razor-Sharp-Ed ... s9dHJ1ZQ==


Oh yeah, just used Titebond.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Not sure what he’s charging right now but when he sold me one earlier this year the price was so reasonable that the cost could be recovered in a single fret job. Probably half a fret job.