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Hi folks....again a few years passed since my last visit. Glad to see many of the old guys are still active!! How times flies and how it sucks not to have time. But to get on point, this year I have coincidentally received two different orders for steel string guitars, and it was about time after 15 years of doing only classicals

I know/agree there aren't that many solid reasons for not using a trussrod, and I would rather not see a flame started over this. But in the end I would like to keep it simple and close to what I already do, while the customers agreed with me going the vintage way. So I can say I have good experience with mahogany reinforced by ebony or carbon fiber (depending on density and requested thickness) and that i also like to have the frets in as tight as possible, with pretty much no gap between slot and tang, also augmented with hide glue (i have also used super glue or titebond but I do not feel these have nearly as much compression resistance to counteract the slots closing in on the tang)

My (guess) plan is to use 3 carbon rods, deep inlaid (or a full depth ebony spine plus 2 carbon rods at the thirds) and about 0.005 built in relief. The strings are going to be lights and my hope is they will pull a bit more for a total of about 0.01 Perhaps a dead flat no-tension FB is OK when mediums?

Very curious how you guys approach this sort of anachronistic neck build

Thanks!

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Build log

Welcome back!

I would follow Burton's example and make a wood core D tube. Slightly heavier than a hollow tube of course, but easier to make, and still much lighter than a steel truss rod. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=578478#p578478

If you're also going to do a Spanish heel/integral neck, the advice I always give is to use hide glue, shellac finish, and omit back binding. That makes it relatively easy to perform the heel slip reset procedure.

3 rods is overkill IMO. I put one large one in a broken Music Man bass neck back in the 80's and it was plenty.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Why would anyone build a new guitar without a truss rod? It baffles me. Route a 1/4" slot and your done. it takes the same amount of work to put a slot in for a piece of carbon fiber.

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https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/

"Very curious how you guys approach this sort of anachronistic neck build "

One of the few pre-truss rod guitars I had was an old Gibson "O" Artist Model that still had a straight neck had a very thick neck that most modern players would not be happy with.
A single action rod that is adjusted through the sound hole might be almost as light and just as easy to install as a carbon rod. Being able to adjust the amount of relief a neck has can be more critical for a steel string player who may use strings of greatly differing tensions.

For small parlor guitars, I use a square 1x1 cm hollow tube, the hole is filled in with a matching 8 mm round birch rod. Most of the stiffness of a rod comes from the outer layer, so a hollow square tube is almost as stiff as a solid one.

My process is to glue the rod with epoxy with a thin sliver of wood on top to have something to hot hide glue the fretboard to. When the neck is glued in place, the guitar is stringed up temporary, with small pieces of loose frets filling out the middle third of the fretboard. The guitar is tuned to tension and left to adjust itself a couple of days, I use the time to vibrate the guitar hanging in a closet. The guitar is put in the Erlewine Neck Jig to freeze the neck as it is with strings at tension. The pieces of frets are carefully loosened and the fretboard can be sanded straight with a small relief, I have aluminum sanding beams with a 0.15 mm reverse relief made with a CNC to get a nice curve. When the guitar is off the jig, the neck and fretboard typically have a small back bow with an extra bow back near the nut, in compensation for the torsion force over the nut with strings on. The real fretting is done, and the guitar is stringed to tension and put in the jig again for crowning.

The end result is a slightly back bowed neck that magically straightens up with a nice relief with strings at tension. With the same tension on the strings, the neck shape will be stable for a long time. The carbon rod don't creep (well, not much anyway).

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New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

Welcome back and as much as you wanted to avoid this I have to let you know too that very nearly every day we save a guitar, steel string, from the trash heap because not only does it have a truss rod but it has a double action rod.

Steel strings are different animals under more tension than classical AND steel string players use alternate tunings which can greatly change the amount of tension, relief, etc on the neck.

In Michigan where we still have winter... our homes dry out and so too do our guitars if people don't humidify their homes well. Necks go into back bow, strings on steel strings come down on the frets, etc and then they come see me. Out of the around 1,100 guitars that come our way annually a huge percentage have had this happen and that's why we see them, they have dried out.

When a neck dries out the frets sprout out the ends, back bow as I mentioned, the dome on the top shrinks, bridges lift and sometimes the tops crack usually below the bridge.

All these things can be repaired and the client and instrument can be made whole again unless, unless there is not a truss rod and then it's often time for the scrap heap... and it was avoidable. When I say scrap heap I speak of the economics of having professional, busy Luthiers repair an instrument and what they, we charge. Often the economics of the repair vs. the value of the instrument are not a match....

So I'm not going to let up on my suggestions to steel string makers to do the right thing, provide that real value, make your instruments serviceable and take advantage please of newer double action rods. None of these things need be issues for you AND you will be able to dial in all manner of string gauges and brands if you have a truss rod too.

And once more, welcome back!!!

I agree, it is hard to - objectively- justify building without a truss rod. Even on a classical. String tension aside, wood is wood and humidity is humidity....

But, to rephrase my question, what is the common wisdom on the amount of relief to be put on a non-adjustable neck, before frets. Roger above likes a very slight backbow. My plan was to add a slight amount but on an overkilled base (3 deep rods)

I understand few people build like this these days, but there are repairs. If I understand well, Martin only started using adjustables in the 80s. All those older guitars need a refret from time to time. Assuming a well cared guitar, no need for reset, not dried, not soggy, just plain honest fret divots. You pull those out, clean up the fingerboard, repair splinters, maybe sand some wear divots too. If you hand-bend the neck, it feels super solid, not one of those rubber jobs. Perhaps it has a T steel inside. How do you like it before putting the frets. Not considering heavy strings or odd tunings. Lights, medium tops. Flat or, with very slight relief (003 (=a bit of light) 005, more?)

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Build log

if you are planning on using a non adjustable neck reinforcement , you will have to make your relief adjustment but compression fretting. While carbon fiber may be string you still have some and being able to control neck relief is so very important for a good playing guitar.
so explore compression fretting first .
In todays world there is no reason not to use an adjustable rod.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

There are reasons. A truss rod will make the guitar neck heavy. A heavy metal rod is not good for the sound. A truss rod may create as many problems as it solves.

_________________
New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

I'll ignore the truss rod or not question. The only way I can see to do this properly on a steel string is to build it and then go through the compression fretting process. I don't think you can predict where the neck is going to end up without stringing it up. A Blanchard two-way rod is just over 4oz, a lot of work for a small weight savings, hope it works out well for you!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Shooting for a very slight back bow is subjective as can be with variables such as the materials, neck stiffening CF if any, string tension AND tunings and I would consider shooting for slight back bow in a static neck with no string tension to be not much better than a wild ass guess.

Instead do like countless veteran repair people do when compression fretting a Martin. Put strings on it, tune to pitch and see what you have in terms of relief. Use the exact strings that you plan to use as well.

If for example you have more relief than you want remove strings and mill relief out of the neck with the long beams and repeat the process until you have the relief you want.

For a steel string with normal tunings and 12's on it I would want very little relief, only a couple of thou on the treble side and more on the bass side.

The method that I detailed here also lets you see what you have as the differential between the bass and treble side and mill them both independently for differing levels of relief.

I gave it up a while back here and spoke of slight finger back pressure on the head stock and slight pulling on the head stock when using the long beams to create relief and differential between the two sides, bass and treble. Many here considered that to be kind of a holy grail post from me and they appreciated it. It's what would be very helpful for you here too.

Again be sure that you use the strings you plan to use on this instrument and it's tuned to the tuning that it will live with most of the time.

Regarding your last questions we are Martin certified like our buddy John Hall is and people who refret Martins with no truss rod will add strings, tune to pitch and remove at least several times in the process of refretting an instrument without a truss rod. When I compression refret I have strings on and off 3 - 5 times.

Now since you brought it up.... even Martin the keeper of tradition for well built steel string guitars and the standard that all others are judged by ADDED TRUSS RODS REGARDLESS OF THE THOUSANDS OF TRADITIONALIST FANS THAT THEY HAD AND THEY DID SO BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR A STEEL STRING IN A VARIABLE CLIMATE.

Not yelling BTW... just want to make sure that I've done my duty to the countless dead guitars that did not need to die and their owners did not need to be....sol.

PS: .003 and .005 (inches) is fine I would even go a tad less if your fret work and leveling is excellent. Also if you want I will be happy to walk you though milling in relief as we do it and taught it in our classes.

Exactalackally Steve!!!

Roger enough with the subjective bull crap a truss rod is not either bad or good for the sound and you can't prove it either way (nor can I...).

What is bad for the sound of a guitar is when it has to hang in a repair shop and may not be able to be repaired economically in a manner that makes sense for the value of the instrument and means of the steward because a short sided, know it all builder or repair person screwed up... and did not use a truss rod on a steel string.

Now there are exceptions and I am reluctant to waste anymore time on you Roger since we have history and it's not good..... One exception is what TJ Thompson creates exact replicas of prewar Martins for example. That's a good reason but these are also highly specialized instruments that will sell for tens of thousand and likely be taken care of.

with todays rods some are heavier but talking from an engineering point there are different neck adjustment rods from flexing , to compressing.
The old T bars were heavy yet may feel the old pre war Martins made the best sounding guitars.
So when a neck is under compression this is also changing the damening effect. As Hesh points out , what good is the non adjustable rod if you can't keep the action correct?
Compressiong fretting is difficult and a learned skill. They work however adjustable rods allow for finite adjustment

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Even when I am using a truss rod I build my necks as if there wasn't one there, i.e. the truss rod is never activated during the setup process. I do build necks without one but only if the customer understands the risks completely. Most guitars have a rod.

A few things I do:

-To mimic bar frets (in spirit, at least) I cut the fret slots to .019 or so (I had blades custom ground) and file 90% of the barbs off of the T fret tang before assembly. I use hide glue to install them. I fret the board before gluing it to the neck. I can understand why some people would think this is crazy, but it has worked really well for me. I like this too because if someone ever did need to compression fret in the future the narrow slot is preferable to a wider one. Easier to remove barbs then add them! Especially where board compression is concerned.

-I'll carefully shape the board (before fretting) to have .010 fall away from the 5th or 6th fret back to the nut position on the treble side and .002-3 from 5-6 to 12. The bass side is flat, and it blends from treble to bass side. I'll build in .02+ fallaway from 14 to 21. The board is compound 13-20 or so along its length. Measuring all this is tricky! I do it on a surface plate with a bunch of indicators. See here: https://www.instagram.com/p/CSfV2MGLTwq/

-I use a U shaped Carbon tube (Dennis linked to it above) in the neck and it works GREAT. I love it. That extends into the headstock and into the neck extension up to fret 17/18 or so. When I use a truss rod I'll install it inside of the CF. There is some adjustability but the neck is very stiff, even using lightweight Spanish cedar as the neck material.

This all works to give me the relief I am looking for when strung up (flat+ on the treble side and tapering to .010 or so on the bass) and it is pretty consistent. Any flattening or modifying of that has been done using the Stewmac understring leveler. Loosening the strings reliably changes the relief and you can back off a certain amount and then level. When strung back up it is is consistent in terms of numbers and fret surface.

Doing it this way every time gives me confidence for when I make a neck without a truss rod, I know I'll be extremely close to my target without having to do a lot of fret shaping to hit my relief specs. I would still echo everyone else's advice and recommend putting in a rod, but if you choose not to (as I do sometimes) the above has helped me.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Thanks, lots of food for thought. I am very curious, how much is that FB springing after frets are in? Do you see it going down a little a day or 3 after the glue cures completely? Although I imagine not much is in there.

If anyone is curious, for my classicals I use a ~023 slot and hide glue, if the wood is hard. If the wood is under 1k density,. I cut with a ground saw, about 019 or 020. Otherwise, even if there is carbon, and with the flimsy nylon tension, it can bow up in a year or even less.
In general I want the neck to be super stiff and not sensitive to the string pull. I carve the needed relief in the fingerboard (005 to 008 for the bass end, 002 to almost nothing treble), press the frets with hide glue and hope there is minimal to none subsequent fretwork needed. Jescar makes those frets perfect, no need to muck them with hammers and files ) I am not happy with my work if I need to work on more than 3 frets out of 20.

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Build log

If you string it up without frets then won't you have excessive relief?

I have built some 5 or so without truss rods and what I found is I got lucky on a couple of them while the others needed to be refret a couple months later.

My method was to make a very slight forward bow in the neck so that when it got fretted the compression would pull it back flat or with slight relief then with string tension on would pull even more relief.

My experience is that the shape of the neck will change the first couple of days with strings at tension before the neck finds its final form. That's why I put on temporary frets and strings at tension a couple of days before shaping the fretboard as described above.

The actual fretting using superglue may add additional back bow to the neck, especially if the fretboard is hard ebony. I mostly use softer rosewood in my fretboards, with fewer problems. The temporary frets emulate the effect from the real fretting pretty close, most of the time the crowning done with the same relief sanding beam as I use for sanding the fretboard is a fast job.

_________________
New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

PM'd you.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I think it may be safe to say Hesh and I have done more compression fretting than any of you. I have been doing them for over 20 years.

if you insist on this , I find Jescar frets wire has the best options right now with a 43 80 fretwire.
Set up 2 weight about 5 lb each
set them on the shoulder of the guitar with the head stock supported
Most of the movement is going to be from the 8th fret up

measure the movement of the neck with and without weight
this helps give you a feeling how much it will move. I use .023 slots
Then fret the extension and place a .020r fret at 1 5 12
lay a straight edge with and without the weight
now fret what you may think to start for a .007 fall off from the 7th fret to 1
I use .0195 to .0245 fret tang
constantly use the weight to simulate string load

once fretted string up and let set 4 days than level and set up

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Exactly John and thanks for the great and informative post.

One of the things we do different and I noticed it above too in someone else's post is this waiting for a few days. We've never done this with one exception, we ghost built the final set-ups for some small builders where we did the neck set, fretting, nut, saddle and final set-up. We waited then a day or two but not intentionally it's just how the work flow went.

We use CA to glue frets but we never wait and we've not had any down side from not waiting either our set-ups including relief specs remain the same except for RH changes the instrument encounters.

I realize that you guys are letting it settle in but I am suggesting to you that we don't do that step and have not observed any down side to not doing it.

Of course most of our work is on existing, well seasoned instruments.

Oh got ya. I missed the part about temporary frets and that correlates pretty much with the experience I have had, that the guitars need to be refretted.

Basically if someone asks me to build a guitar without an adjustable truss rod I would probably charge an additional $500 for all the setup work and a refret.

yep, gotta have the frets in before ya put the strings on.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"