Official Luthiers Forum!

The one study I'm aware of that tried to look at the Tonerite carefully found that it made no difference. I think the study could have been done better, but in science you have to go with the data you have. It's on the 'Savart Journal' website.

That said, I do think there's something to the notions of 'warming up' (short term changes) and 'playing in' (long term). The problem is getting data that stands up to close scrutiny. The data I have seen, and gotten myself, suggests there are some changes, but so far we don't have enough information to be able to say what changes and why. Lots of different models have been proposed, but we can't yet distinguish between them, especially since we haven't even established that the effect is real yet. I will say that I don't know any luthier who thinks it doesn't happen, but the plural of 'anecdote' is not necessarily 'data'. Whatever it is, the Tonerite doesn't seem to do it.

I prefer to believe what I hear again and again and not a bad scientific study

_________________
New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

I have NOT read all the post here so this may have been mentioned already Some one on anothe page wrote " Guitars built on Metric scale sound better than those on English scale" ( he was joking )

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Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
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Only if you use a metric fretting hammer.

We would search for and then get dissertations from graduate students in related topics since we have 50,000 students and a top university and our shop is just off campus. Lots of folks trying to describe how a guitar works and lots of folks were and are very wrong. But as you know Al it underscores that this is complex, very complex and it may be as complex as rocket science how all the interactions stack up and work together or not with jsut an acoustic guitar.

I'm sure too that there is an opening up of instruments but I also believe it can happen a number of ways including just playing it a lot. When Tonrite first came out others were using fish tank pump too and claiming similar results, I don't doubt it.

In our business there is the stuff that is subjective and difficult to prove and there is the stuff you can measure somehow. We try very hard to keep our conversations with clients in the realm of the quantifiable and we do like to demonstrate what we share too and our customers love.

One of my customers designs satellites, and has software on his computer for modeling vibration, to make sure nothing will shake off on launch. He tried to use it to evaluate a guitar, but the software couldn't handle it. This is more complicated than rocket science...

When I was studying violin making and acoustics we used to say that some things are easy to measure and hard to hear, and other things are hard to measure and easy to hear. The problem is that people tend to hear what they think they'll hear, or want to hear, and that makes measurements even more complicated.

I think often of what I call 'Feynman's Dictum': "You are the easiest person for you to fool". Not fooling yourself is hard work.

I think this goes to the heart of some of the sacred cows we are discussing.

Maybe this is the attraction to what we do, there are still lots of questions and few answers.

I'm remembering the guy we speak of here every decade or so when he announces that he's figured out how Stradivarius got his tone. From mini-ice age to borax in the wood it's all a discovery for awhile and then debunked later. Keeps us thinking.

Exactalackilly!!

Here’s one from today. The contention is that ebony fretboards have a different sound to IRW fretboards and some (like my customer today) claim they can “hear the difference a mile away”.


(Fender guys say this a lot about maple vs rw boards, too)

Well, I would not be too quick to dismiss the notion that the fretboard wood could affect the sound on a solid body. The neck is the most flexible part, and there can be several whole-guitar vibration modes that fall within the range of fundamentals of played notes, so you could well see differences in sustain and so on by changing to a stiffer or denser fingerboard wood on one of those. On an acoustic guitar I've only been able to find one 'neck' vibration mode that can affect the tone, and then only when everything lines up just right.

Hold the guitar up by pinching the neck up near the nut between your thumb and finger. Allow it to hang as freely as possible, and tap on the back of the head with the soft part of a finger tip, with your ear close to the top of the headstock. You should be able to hear a low pitched tone, often around C below the low E string. This is the 'first corpus' mode, where the whole guitar is vibrating like a xylophone bar. One stationary 'node' is up around the nut or first fret, and the other roughly across the lower bout at the bridge. The neck bends a lot, so the stiffness of the neck is important, and this is often called the 'neck mode'.

Fred Dickens found years ago that when the neck is particularly stiff, and the head light, this mode can actually be at a high enough pitch to couple with 'main air' resonance. As the head moves 'up' the bending of the neck pushes inward along the length of the top. Since tops are usually domed up, if only by the string load, this push tends to puff the top outward a bit, and that sucks a little air in through the sound hole. It gets pushed out later when the head moves 'back'. If the normal 'air' resonance (often around G on the low E) is close in pitch then the the 'neck' and 'air' resonant modes work together.

If you look at a spectrum chart for most guitars you'll see two major peaks in the output in the low range; the 'main air' and 'main top' resonances. These are actually the two halves of a 'bass reflex couple', where the top and the air pump air through the hole in and out of phase with each other. At the 'air' pitch air is rushing into the hole as the lower bout of the top moves 'out'. Some of the air goes to fill in where the top is moving in, so there's less sound produced out in front. At the so-called 'top' resonance both the air flow and the top motion are moving in the same direction, and they add up. Thus the 'air' peak will usually be at a lower level than the 'top'. Keep in mind that both parts, the air and the top, are moving at both pitches (usually about an octave apart on the guitar). The two peaks are a tell-tale that there are two things working together in this pitch range.

If the 'air' pitch happens to come in right at G on the low E string the guitar will be very effective at turning string energy into sound at that pitch. You get a note that's twice as powerful for half as long. Twice the power does not sound twice as loud: it's actually just noticeable, but we all pick up on the lack of sustain: it's the dreaded 'thuddy G'.

If you can tune the 'neck mode' to match the 'air' resonance pitch you'll get another 'split peak'. The 'air' resonance in the spectrum will actually have two peaks with a dip in between. The peaks are not as tall as the single peak when the neck mode is not tuned right, so you've lost a bit of peak power. On the other hand, the total area under the spectral curve will be greater with the 'neck' match: you get more 'available horsepower' in that range. Since the 'thud' problem is linked to the peak height there's less risk of that (and less risk of feedback at that pitch when amplifying too). Instead of one note being reinforced a lot you get two or three that have been boosted some; the low range can take on a 'full' or 'dark' sound.

I've seen some evidence that some, at least, of the best Classical makers might have controlled for this. Since it's very dependent on neck stiffness you can raise the 'neck' pitch by making the neck deeper at the body end.

Headstock mass is also important. Sometimes you can raise the neck pitch enough to be useful by swapping out tuners for lighter weight ones. This depends on a bunch of other variables, of course, which accounts fo the fact that different people can get different results on their guitars from the same swap.

There are, of course, other, higher pitched resonances that are also affected by the neck stiffness, and thus by fingerboard mass and stiffness. Coupling mechanisms with other modes, like the higher order air modes or top resonances, are less clear, and, of course, the pitches of these modes varies a lot. Whether, or how, these would change the sound is a can of worms that I have not had the time or inclination to peer into.

I don’t doubt changing the weight and density of material can affect things.

I do doubt the claim that someone could, blind, hear a guitar and name the fretboard material from the sound alone.

As regards "playing in" and "warming up" of guitars, I find it interesting that these phenomena also seem to affect basketball hoops. I wonder if a ToneRite would work there as well.

I take it you don't believe in the ToneRite or the whole idea of "playing in". Everyone have the right to believe whatever they want, but I'm genuinely curious to know if you actually have tried one out? If so, on what type of guitar, an old and well played, old and unplayed, with a plywood top or a new one?

_________________
New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

Good one! Have to be careful not to trip on the cord...

OK moving on and this thread is intended to be a listing of myths and falsehoods and not an in-depth discussion of any one subject. You guys can start your own threads when and if you see something you want to expand on.

This is my favorite and perhaps my all time favorite Lutherie myth:

A certain famous player who we all have heard believes that it makes a difference which 9 volt battery he uses in his effects pedals. Seems that Duracell and Eveready produce different electrons in his opinion..... resulting in different tone.

Silly me I always thought that an electron was an electron

This has been confirmed, weird as it may seem. My former business partner of many decades used to build tube powered pedals, and Eric Johnson bought 2 of them (Mike still has the cancelled check framed in his shop). Eric demonstrated his "skill" as it were before a local show backstage, much to Mike's delight.

Further to that, I have a childhood friend who plays guitar, and Ed is possessed of an amazing pair of ears. He can do it, too. He can even tell when the battery is running low. Says pedals sound best right before the battery dies (voltage increases while amperage decreases). Beats the hell out of me how they can discern this. Obviously operating on a different level than mere talentless hacks such as you or I.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Personally, I wouldn’t consider the fact that a few people (albeit very talented people) claim to hear a difference as “confirmation” that there is, in fact, a difference. Very talented people are as prone to Feynman’s Dictum as anybody else.

And we don't have to debate or solve any of these here, anyone and everyone can start a new thread at their heart's desire for each individual topic if you want.

The fact that Don, Chris and I all have a difference of opinion here to some extent is what makes these interesting to bring up.

Maybe if we were to redefine the term "Lutherie" after this thread it might read "the jury is still out."

From page 1.

Used some on the dragon heads on this 12th fret inlay. Nice to work with. when you cut the nuts open you often get voids in the middle which can limit the size of inlay.

I believe that Guitars built with a full dose of Malarky sound better than those built without, As a matter of fact I prefer to finish them with Malarky. Preferably Hand mixed . The store bought Malarky is not good quality.

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Organic, free range malarkey, for sure.

Nice Bob!!

One of my students, who had a degree in acoustics, brought up the battery thing. It seems that different battery types have different characteristics in the relationship between current and voltage that they deliver, and that this can affect the response of the electronics they're powering.

I'm still trying to figure out how liquid metal wires can be 'better' than copper ones with the same resistance and inductance.