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The drawback with a carbon rod is obviously that it's not adjustable. If the guitar changes with the weather, the solution is to have more than one saddle. This is more cumbersome than adjusting a truss rod, but more correct. Using the truss rod to adjust the string height at the 12th fret is a quick fix that only works as long as the simultaneous change in relief don't cause other problems.

If the player changes string gauge and the tension on the neck, adjusting the saddle is the solution if the string height becomes too high or low. If the carbon rod (together with the neck and fretboard) is strong enough, the relief will not change much.

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New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

Fretting is all about making a neck playable. I do not agree that a truss rod is a tone killer but a poor fret job is for sure.

So when talking fretting are you talking T frets Compression fretting or Bar fretting.

We all have our favorite techniques and I prefer to fret on the guitar using the Taylor fret buck.

A prep the fretboard I do this after I glue it on the neck and I glue them on a granite plate without frets so I can
get the neck as straight as possible. I can also set the fretboard extension off fall on the guitar .
B When I fret standard I start at 20 and go back I don't think it matters much
what does matter is how the barbs seat and this takes a day or do.
I use tite bond not so much to glue but it works as a lubricant then as a filler
Use the proper tang to engage the neck.

C when fretting and I am a tapper and prefer a #5 cobblers chasing hammer , just the technique I learn we all
have our preferences

if the frets are not well seated you didn't do a real fret job. Pay attention to these final fit details


I let the frets set at least 4 hrs before fret level on adjustable truss rod
with a good prep and good seating you can level the frets with very little work.
the better the fret plane the better then neck will play.

Compression fretting is totally different we can get into that another time. this is used on necks with neck reinforcement like a Tee bar or carbon fiber.

now one thing that fretting can influence is the dampening effect and this is the tone killer.

The frets can influence the stiffness in a neck. We all have seen necks that forward bow a great deal and have a lot
of movement. This is what can kill tone.

I use machinist set up parallels and weight to check neck movement when fretting. Even on truss rod necks. I do want the frets
to influence the neck relief , this tells me the frets tangs are holding. The stiffer the neck the less dampening effect. The less you will have to adjust the neck and more stable it will be

it is important to learn fretting basics . Find the technique that works the best for you .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Changing saddle height is a way to effect the action. My question was about what you do about the neck, which will unavoidably change shape throughout the guitar’s life as weather, string tension, tuning and so on change.

As I’m sure you know, you can change a saddle and have beautiful action at the 12th fret but still be left with a guitar that plays poorly, or even buzzes, due to the relief going out of spec due to a change in weather or string tension.

Jacking up or cutting down the saddle to deal with neck issues like this is very far from a “correct” approach.

In fact in most cases it either doesn’t work or just replaces the problem with a new problem. Dealing with a buzzy back-bowed neck by jacking action way up high? Cutting a saddle down to nothing as a band-aid for excessive upbow? No thanks.

The fact remains that a change in relief of one or two thousandths of an inch, or 0.025mm-0.05mm is a big deal. It’s the difference between a well-setup instrument that is a dream to play and an instrument that feels mediocre or even uncomfortable.

I take it as given that necks will change shape, as I work on hundreds each year and none of them stay put with the seasons or changes in string gauge, even the ones with cf rods in ‘em. In theory, you can build a non-adjustable neck that is stiff enough to never move. In practice most still move and you are making a choice to build the guitar equivalent of a broken clock - it’s only right twice a day. Or in this case, at a certain time of the year, with a certain type of strings and the strings tuned to a certain pitch.

To me, a guitar that cannot be setup well is a bad guitar, regardless of any subjective tonal advantages to how it is constructed. Truss rods help with achieving a good setup. Therefore omitting an adjustable rod puts you in danger of producing a bad guitar. That’s my perspective anyhow as someone who gets paid to put well-fettled instruments into the hands of players.

>Changing saddle height is a way to effect the action. My question was about what
>you do about the neck, which will unavoidably change shape throughout the guitar’s life
>as weather, string tension, tuning and so on change.

I misunderstood your question. Since the carbon rod can't be adjusted, the only thing left, if the shape of the neck changes, is to refret after sanding a new relief in the fretboard.

>I take it as given that necks will change shape, as I work on hundreds each year and
>none of them stay put with the seasons or changes in string gauge, even the ones with
>cf rods in ‘em. In theory, you can build a non-adjustable neck that is stiff enough to
>never move. In practice most still move and you are making a choice to build the guitar
>equivalent of a broken clock - it’s only right twice a day. Or in this case, at a certain time
>of the year, with a certain type of strings and the strings tuned to a certain pitch.

Good call. On my restored 12 fret parlor guitars, the carbon rod is keeping the neck relief steady winter and summer an over time. I have seen the string height change between summer and winter, but not a change of the neck relief. One good thing with carbon, apart from its lightness, tap tone and stiffness, is that it is resistant to creeping over time.

I love the carbon rod for its sound and lightness (very important to me), but the adjustability of the truss rod IS a nice feature when you need it. Maybe there is a way to combine the two. A solid carbon rod with a channel inside for a really lightweight truss rod for small adjustments would be nice.

_________________
New will change the old,
turn to ashes or gold

http://www.gammelgura.se

There is a way to combine the two http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=578365#p578365
However it will be as heavy as any truss rod. Maybe you could use one of those new Allied ultra-light rods.

We need to get a big, ugly, color graphic that gets displayed when someone posts bullcrap that isn't true....

Use a truss rod folks truss rods save the day every day from the 22 year old coed who left her Martin against the register and went on spring break to the 60's Gibson on it's last hurrah before neck reset time or abandonment a truss rod can and does save the day. Double action rods can save the day twice

The notion of hearing a difference having a rod or not is subjective bullcrap and not the kind of snake oil that this forum has a tradition of furthering. It's also instrument specific and could go either way also making it...... subjective. The OLF has never dealt with the subjective nor do we want to.

And anyone who falsely claims to be able to hear the difference has way better pot than I do....

Our shop if you presented your guitar for repair having to do with the neck and there is no truss rod we would turn you away unless it's a vintage Martin built without the truss rod. We are not alone. If your instrument was not engineered to be serviceable don't be surprised when those who make our living servicing guitars don't want to get any of this crap on us and turn it away. So use a rod.....

Advice here should be qualified if it is not specific to today's modern guitars and new builds that members might do. The fact that vintage instruments before the invention of a truss rod didn't have a truss rod should not be evidence of truss rods being bad and/or not having one being better.

Today over 99% of all guitars built have a truss rod and the reason for this is it's a good idea for the serviceability of the instrument.

when using non adjustable neck reinforcement you don't sand in neck relief you use compression fretting. This is how neck we adjusted before the adjustable truss rod came out.
Like Hesh I agree there is nothing wrong with adjustable rods.

So if you are going to pursue a non adjustable rod Learn the basics of compression fretting.

Jescar and Duncan sells fret wire with different tang widths if you use Bar frets you go to TJ Thompson

the big thing is knowing the physics of how the neck works and use weight to know how much the neck moves

I cannon stress this enough the tangs and barbs do the work and using glue or even just water is needed. Its about making the end grain in the slot accept the barb and how they seat. The heavier the tang the more they back bow the neck, and most necks will
move from the 8th fret up to the nut.

Learn to observe what the weight does and how the neck moves in relation to the frets

Bar frets are a lot more technical in that you have to use a chaseing hammer to adjust the thickness of them. Some people think that these are better necks for tone so its all an individual thing.

BASICS OF COMPRESSION FRETTING
A need to be able to support the headstock
B 2 weights I use lead shop in a 1lb rice pudding cup about 11 lb
C a good straight edge a 15 inch planer blade works well.
D A good level straight bar I use a 1 by 2 chunk of Aluminum machined to true 220 on one side 400 on the other

Now the first thing you do is prep the board sand true without weight. I also do a small fall off on the fretboard extension
of about .010 to .020 to allow rise and fall with RH changes. I should also note that my shop is RH controlled so try and so this at about a 45% to 50% rh

The first frets I place are the extension using the smaller tangs so from 14 fret down I usually use a .0185 or .0195 depending on the fret slot. I also use a dab of tite bond one on each end and one in the middle. Fret from one end to another DO NOT COMPRESS THE FRET ALWAYS ON END TO THE OTHER
You should see a small bit of glue come out to seal the end slot. If you have a pocket fret or bound board leave a little gap as to not push the fret end into the edge and pop the slot.

Once these are fretted be sure to check that they are seated well. I use the Taylor fret buck I know Stew Mac is selling them. A great investment.

Now the bar frets will require them to set in what I call friendly friction you want them to be pushed in , and on the bottom tap a metal chisel onto this to create a barb. Hide glue is used to hold them in. I have used tite bond and fish glue. HHG and Tite bond are my favorite.

Now lets address the rest of the neck.

To beginners you may have to pull a few frets till you get this technique but follow this basic list you will do ok

with no weight see the neck is true and from now on only measure down the center.

Add the weight that is simulating a string tension and measure your bow. Every neck will be a little different so you just want to see that the neck is moving.

Fret up to 10 do one around 5 using a 0225 at 5 a 0205 at 10 and a .0225 at 1
the purpose of this is we want the working frets 1 to 10 to be addressing the slot end grain actively and this is on an ebony fretboard
ROSEWOOD MOVES MORE THAN EBONY

so now we have 3 points to use for measuring movement.

I now fret 7 and 3 you look at the neck with and without the weight to get an idea how hard you need to work the neck
often the lower frets from 7 to 20 don't need to work as hard but of you do need them use a .0235 or heavier as they had a lot more neck to move

the goal is to see about a .007 to .009 fall of develop without weight and about dead flat with the weight.

There is no rule so this is all about cause and effect here. So pay attention to neck movement.

once all the frets are in I let the weight set over night to let the glue cure and give the barbs a chance to seat.

now level the frets I like to use about 8 lb of weight here is where the weight helps you read what the neck relief will become

most compression fretted neck seldom move so take the time to do this .
To get the neck straight for fret level you can also just move the support up the neck with the heavier weight till you see its as
straight as it can go.
Level dress frets and polish

BAR FRETS can be a bear as they are so over sized so you have to thin them and cut them down. I will work bar frets down so they are .050 and lower.

Fretting is about prep and details. I have done 1000s of fret jobs. This is a skill well worth the effort as a well fitted fret plane makes the guitar as playable as it can be.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I found the perfect thing to post when a poster is posting untrue information or misleading information.....