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Same … I remember my first guitar that wasn’t a kit. I made 4 necks before I got something g right ha. That said it was just a journey of knowledge for me … that was the ending purpose.


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Process order....Anyone have simple process flow order outline(s)? I continually have problems doing things in the wrong order that makes the next step much harder than it should be. Right now it has to do with binding the neck, but every build has had me wishing I had done the process steps in a different order that makes the following process easier. Part of it is that I'm not building regularly enough, less than one guitar a year....and part is that I have an old memory that I trust a little too much coupled with the fact that I keep trying to do something new with each build. I have learned from previous mistakes, but blunder into new ones too often. Appreciate any inputs. Roy

IIRC, The Cumpiano/Natelson book [CORRECTION--Gore/Gilet Build book] has a flow chart. That can be a starting place. However, I recommend tweaking to meet your needs. A good example, just regarding the fingerboard: If I am going to bind it, I do that before it is attached to the neck, but after I have cut the fret slots, and before I have arched it laterally. It makes sense to fill out index cards, each with a specific task, and do a layout on a large table. Then move the cards around to accommodate the unique way you like to do things. I bet everybody's flow chart is going to be just a little different.

Thanks, Don. I'll spend some time with that book again; another issue I have is reading a book and thinking I remember more than I really do. Course, I have a few little issues. Roy

Roy reminded me that it was Gore/Gilet that contained a flow chart, not Cumpiano/Natelson. Thanks for the course correction, Roy. My memory is not always reliable.

Having said that, I think that one could look at the contents of the Cumpiano/Natelson book and make a great chronological flow chart, because that is how the book is organized (with a few exceptions described in the book). Again, if you do things differently from the methods outlined in the book, you should think about the order of processes, and adjust to fit your needs.

Personally, I like to think through this question both frontwards and backwards. By that I mean: Not only do I think about what I want to do next, I also think backwards from the completed instrument (or the completed subpart of the instrument) and try to determine the best order in which to get to that final result.

I'll give another example:

I have done a couple of semi-hemispherical fret end treatments on new instruments with bound fingerboards. It is a lot of extra work, and some folks don't think it is worth it, but I like it, and so I have tried to think about the most efficient way to do the steps. All of the videos I have seen show a person taking each fret, one by one, from the raw, overlong piece of fretwire through the steps of making it the right length and rounding and polishing the ends. Then they move onto the next fret, and do all of the steps to that fret, and so on. I figured out recently that I can save a lot of work by doing it this way:

1. Measure the width of the fingerboard at every fret slot, and record those measurements on a chart.
2. Subtract the setback (times 2) from that length for every fret, and record those numbers on the chart.
3. Cut and grind every fret to the right length (per the second number above) and store in the caddy, in the right storage hole for that fret.
4. Remove the right amount of fret tang from all the frets. It should be the same amount every time.
5. Round the fret ends for all the frets, using a dished out Dremel grinding wheel (or something fancier if you have it).
6. Polish all of the fret ends with a buffing wheel and buffing compound appropriate for metal.
7. Install the frets however you normally do that, being careful to center the frets across the fingerboard.

It is shocking how much wasted time you eliminate by just doing all 19-20 frets at the same time for each discrete step, instead of taking each fret from raw material to finished product, one by one.

I think order of processes is something to be constantly questioned and re-evaluated. And its an interesting and challenging part of the building process, always trying to do the job better by figuring out which parts of the job should be done before others.

Hey Roy,
Don has some very good advice on how to look at how to improve your process, I think anyone who is serious about building things (not just guitars) has to think about the order in which they do each task.

I think one way that really helped me is to look up build threads (here and other forums ((and yes even Youtube)). Specifically the ones that will help the most are step by step picture threads. There are a number of excellent ones on this forum alone. The other thing you can do is search a specific topic like fretting, or neck making or what ever you are getting ready to do. It will help you understand the order things should be done in so you can apply it to your project.

I have a bit of a rule for myself which may help you. Before I ever post a question asking how to do something I try to search for an answer. If I find conflicting info or I just don't understand, then I turn to the forum to ask. This does a couple of things, 1. It gets me reliant on myself to find answers on my own. and 2. When I do ask the question I have a pretty good understanding of the topic I need help with.

I think you will soon find out that you will start thinking about process and how you approach each task as you work and you will improve with each thing you do.

Cheers,
Bob

Don my friend when we were teaching our fretting class we also taught one method to do semi-hemi fret ends on the guitar after the frets are installed AND while keeping every fret perfectly lined up so when countless people in time sight down that neck it's not all over the place and difficult to determine what we see for relief.

This is one of the down sides of semi-hemi fret ends, the unevenness when sighting the neck which is the first thing most repair people do when a guitar comes in along with the fact that in our our experience having provided them to hundreds of clients not a single person has ever noticed the fret ends and said anything about them What are ya going to do.

But I like the look too like you do Don and Dave came up with a method to do them on the instrument. I don't want to share it here it's his IP but I am happy to share it with you off line as a present for listening to us

Semi-hemi fret ends are for luthiers to show off their skills. However - many folks never notice what they look like.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

That's a very generous offer, Hesh! Just let me know when I can cash in this pile of chips, and whether we need to talk, PM, e-mail, Zoom, whatever. I really appreciate it.

I get the fact that players might not appreciate semi hemi fret ends to the full extent we would like them to. But really, for fretting a bound fingerboard, I just think it is a good way to do the job, so to me, it has value independent of trying to get the coveted "oooh, aaah" reaction from the players. But that value is not worth the cost of an insane amount of extra time invested, so I trimmed my investment of time per the procedure outlined above. And I should say, by measuring well, I can get the ends to look pretty consistent in a "down the neck" view. Not perfect, but pretty good.

To those toiling away at semi hemi fret ends, and winding up with inconsistent lengths that fail the "down the neck" sight test, but haven't gone down the road that Hesh has referenced, I can offer this nugget on the measuring task: Quit using calipers, and switch to a flexible steel ruler that goes down to 1/100th of an inch, which you read with a magnifying visor. Fingerboards are curved laterally. Raw fretwire is either straight or has a curve that is different from the curve of the fingerboard. Calipers can't measure a precise length along a curve, but a flexible ruler can. I think the use of calipers for this particular measuring job is one of the reasons folks get wonky fret lengths.

In any event, thanks again, Hesh!

OK Don let's PM and exchange emails. It starts with sending you some pics of the files we use to do this I'll send you a email with some pics maybe Monday morning since I work Sunday night and I'll take some pics.

Being stubborn, I gave it another try...


Not that much better, which isn't a huge surprise. Would like to think I could salvage the fretboard for another neck...Meanwhile I have completed necks on first two guitars that both need work, worst one has the bridge coming up after trying to repair it once. Think I'll see about pulling that neck's bolt inserts, plugging and redrilling with the spacing I'm now trying to standardize.

Funny, I actually feel better about trying again even though it's still not good enough. Thanks for all the inputs.

Roy

Experience is what we get from failure. Looks better to me, so well done!

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Nothing wrong with trying to fix stuff even if it doesn’t work out. It’s how we get experience and learn what can and can’t be reasonably repaired. Only issue is if you’re on the clock trying to make a buck on the job.

Edit: That last sentence sounds like I got it all figured out, I don’t. Sometimes there were repair jobs I took on and ended up losing money.


Steve

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

LOL... I don't think many of us have it all figured out.



But you learned... Been there done that

Cheers,
Bob

Hey Buddy our take on this is different and has served us very well for the decade that we've stuck to this. Here's a quote from our website on how we feel about so-called learning as you go and as such we will not do it....

"We don’t attempt to be all things to all folks: On occasion we may decline on a job. The reasons will also be customer centric in nature meaning that for one reason or another we believe that you may be better served else where. Examples are refinishing guitars, this is something that we don’t do but would be happy to refer you to someone else. The value to our clients in understanding our own limitations is that your instrument will never be subjected to someone’s learning curve...."

Of course we all have to figure stuff out nearly every day or at least I do. But generally speaking we would not take on any job that we have never done before for money and/or without likely in writing expectations. When someone entrusts us with their instrument we know what we are doing, we have done it before, we have even received good reviews for this type of work, we are heavily and properly insured INCLUDING the valuable personal property of others AND we foster a shop environment that is supportive, helpful and permits personal growth.

Our waiting list has dozens of jobs on it so for us it's also not just a matter of losing money when we take on a job that we should not have. We are also letting other clients down in addition to the client whose job we are struggling with because our time is sucked up and we now have an opportunity cost.

So Steve when we decline it's not a holier than thou or looking down our nose thing necessarily it's the ethical thing to do to not attempt to educate oneself on the valuable personal property of others AND to be lean, mean and in a position to make sure that the show goes on tonight.

We've had this very discussion with lots of our colleagues who work in the trade and not just moonlight and this is the North Star of many of us, do no harm, don't learn on the valuable personal property of others and keep in mind that we need to be available to help many not just the few.

I directly credit this thinking where we put good, ethical business practices before our ego with why my home studio has a growing collection of some very fine instruments and amps . It's also resulted in many of our clients being personal friends in time. Had one here yesterday who on his 6th Martin that he brought me I called him up and wanted to get to know him. He's 70, lives 4 miles away, worked for GE too and his 94 year old dad is in assisted living. We've become good friends with a lot in common. He tells me that when he came to us, Dave waited on him that we were honest and under promised and over delivered.

Anyway of course there is no shame in trying to fix stuff, that's what I do every day. But there is some shame in being irresponsible with the valuable personal property of others and putting ego before experience. We have lots of stories of garage shops that did this and could not deliver, got bad reviews and went tits up.

It can be tricky knowing what to take on and today many instruments are simply not very serviceable.

Under promised and never delivered? Feels like a typo. I mean, I know your waiting list is long, but never?

I just had to drive my Mom back to assisted living so I was a little stressed when I banged that out and just noticed it too, horrified...

So this is a good example of why the learning curve and the valuable personal property of others should never meet..... Yep typo, I have cataract surgery early next month, blind Mellon Luthier here lately.

Want me to work on your guitar?

Hey Hesh, hope your mom is ok.

I didn't do a good job of explaining I suppose. I don't think we should learn on somebody else's dime either. I thought the OP was working on his own guitar and, if that's the case, then learning on that is fine since it's his risk. I started working on my own guitars too - in 1963 - so I've been at it for a while.

As far as the other goes, I don't take jobs I don't know how to do but - I have occasionally underbid jobs and there have been times where I just decided to do extra work for no extra charge because the instrument needed it and it was just the right thing to do - all with client permission of course.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Hang in there, Hesh. It's tough taking care of parents at our age(s). Good luck with the surgery. We'll put in a word for a favorable outcome.

Thanks buddy I'm looking forward to being able to see again.... I opted for the super duper lens that will replace my natural lens in my left eye. So I should have near perfect distance vision, right now only one eye is distance. I have one eye that sees close well and can't see doo doo in the distance and the other eye is the opposite.... This is likely the result of a small stroke and started when my A-fib was discovered and started. Oh well. I turned 65 and fell apart....

But I have a good doc who my family used before with excellent results and my friend Kathy just had her eyes done with him last week also with excellent results.

Thanks for the understanding for my Mom too!! I never had any kids of my own and that would have been helpful to me these days so I am winging it as a caregiver with zero experience. So I'm breaking my own rule and taking on a job with no experience but in this case I had no choice and neither do any of us who encounter this later in life. She's great though just kind of needy at times but aren't we all.

So when he works on my eyes he is not doing the learning curve on my dime or with my eyes... How's that for a nice tie in of my point?

See I'm annoying as all hell even when I can't see

Anyway Flem sorry for the high-jack, nothing wrong with working on your own stuff when you have never been there before.

Off to work this early AM have three waiting for me that I could not get to Friday. Busy times in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor and we are now 10 - 0 for a winning percentage of 100%. The town should be torn up when I get there from the partying.

To me it’s analogous with playing an instrument- the more you practice the better you get.
I think what others have said about having a list Of the order of steps is invaluable.
I personally have never done that but at this point in my life I’ve done it so many times that I have my method memorized just like playing a piece of music without the notes in front of you.
There are certain things that I do that are the same on all guitars and that keeps my sanity.
For example when I making a neck no matter what head shape I’m using ( I have about 6 of them)I know that I’m gonna make the head .450”,the top head veneer .090” and the backstrap .050 which gives me.590 Which I have determined to be optimal for the head thickness for all the tuning machines I use Along with being as thick as it can possibly be for strength.

Another example would be the third step I do when making a neck is cut the angle on the end and I have determined that to be 1-1/2° for flat top and 4 1/2° for an arch top. I do this on a 12 inch chopsaw.

So none of this is written down I just know it from doing it so many times of course that would be a good thing When starting out.

So I know if this will help or not but here’s my version of building a neck:

1) Draw the neck shape slightly oversized on the blank and cut it out on the bandsaw
2) True the neck shaft face and the head face-I do both on a jointer obviously you can use a hand plane.
3) Cut the angle on the end of the neck. Are use a chopsaw
4)Route the truss rod slot-I use a router table With a fence.
5) Thickness the next shift and head to final dimensions -I use a bandsaw for the head and a pin router with an angle jig for the next shaft.
6) Cut the dovetail joint. – I use the elevate dovetail jig I have used several over the years I like that one the best.
7) glue the cheeks to the edge of the head to widen it for the head shape, if the blank is wide enough skip this step.
8) glue the head veneer on and if it has a backstrap glue it on as well.
9) Cut the head shape out – I roughed mine out on the bandsaw and finish it up with the template on the pin router. If it is a slot head at this point I would use a jig I made to cut the slots
10) if there’s binding on the head or if there’s a bevel on the head do it now before the fretboard is in the way.
11) install the truss rod and glue the fretboard on.
At this point I don’t have the frets in I do that after it’s glued to the guitar
12) Bandsaw the neckshaft flush with the fretboard leaving about a 16th of an inch.
13) Clean up the neck shaft to the edge of the fretboard or use a chisel and a spokeshave.
14) Carve and sand the neck.


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Oops, I did my usual reactionary thing and asked the questions before re reading the flow. binding and slot steps are clearly shown, sorry.
Honestly, I didn't totally understand #5, so knew I needed to print it and think about details which I haven't done, will post if I have real confusion after I spend the time. Don't bother responding til I get to the point I understand all the steps or have questions.

Roy

Hey Roy,

You said:



I am not positive but I think Brad meant to say:


5) Thickness the NECK SHAFT and head to final dimensions -I use a bandsaw for the head and a pin router with an angle jig for the next shaft.

I could be wrong but I don't know what "Thickness the next shift" could be.

I will let Brad clarify this if I am wrong.

Cheers,
Bob

Brad,

Thanks for that effort. I'm not real sure about step 5 too. I would think it's just thinning the headstock after taking into account the thicknesses of the headplate and back strap or veneer to the finished thickness you want for the finished headplate. I don't really understand what you are shaping with the pin router and the angle jig. And exactly where you glue the scarf joint isn't clear to me; is it also at the end of #5?

I'm definitely gonna adapt this flow when I understand all the steps before I make another neck. Thanks again. Roy

third try....my original intent was just to try for a seamless wood interface between whatever veneer or backstrap I end up using while I decide just what sort of volute I like best; thanks to the help ya'll have offered here's what I now think I can live with...even if the point has a splice insert where a piece of the mahog broke off.



I really do appreciate the extra help and advice I got from RussRob and Brad, as well as all the others who tried to steer me in a better direction than my original idea, and as usual, I know a few things I can change that will make a similar process work better.

Next I'll be doing a bit of research on bridge attachment repair. My #2 guitar bridge was coming loose, after the second time trying to attach it; this time with fish glue. Since I started builds all my repairs are on my own work; I really think a process flow document unique to my processes will help me.

Roy