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Hi folks,

I hope everyone had a great holiday weekend!

A question about setup for guitars that will live life in alternate tunings. What I mean here is not simply drop D but open tunings like Open D & G as well as weird tunings like all strings whole step down (ex: Isbell, If we were vampires) or BEBEBE (ex: Nick Drake).

On my daily player I didn’t do anything special regarding setup (however, it’s not super low action, just 6&4) and it plays fine in all these tunings. I have a customer asking for their build to be setup to accommodate these tunings. That makes me think they have a past experience with a lower quality instrument with a poor fret job that probably buzzed in the lower tuning. So do you do anything special with setup to accommodate?

Another question is around using a slide. I can play slide in open tuning on my normal setup just fine. Do you do anything special if the player will use a slide often? Not in a lap position, I get how those instruments are setup and that some even have a second nut specifically for slide, but more for an instrument that can be played either with or without slide at any time.

Thanks!
Brad


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Brad—

I offer the only thing I know that is useful for either question, and it is only useful for the first one. I listened to the Luthier On Luthier podcast a few days ago, and it was Michael Bashkin’s interview of Brian Galloup. Brian said that he uses carbon fiber in the neck because, if the player uses alternate tunings, the carbon fiber helps the neck not react badly to the change in string tension between different tunings. I personally understand and agree with the school of thought that carbon fiber can work against the intended purpose of a truss rod, which is to dial in a specific amount of bow to counter the pull of the strings. But Brian’s reason for using carbon fiber to deal with how the neck reacts to tuning changes sounded reasonable.

Having a stiffer neck does sound like a good idea. I little extra relief in the neck might also help for when the strings are under less tension.
Do you know what type of strings he uses? Having strings that are a little closer to breaking pitch at the "normal" tuning might allow them to still sound decent at dropped tunings (but make it impossible to tune them to higher pitches).
You might have the prospective client play your guitar in those tunings and see if he likes the set up it has. Hopefully you don't have someone who thinks they can use the dropped tunings and shred cleanly on an acoustic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIiLgMN4gqo
YUCK!

Setting a guitar up for alternate tunings is an exercise in compromises and having a full understanding of what the client is looking for along with a healthy dose of having a come to Jesus discussion with the client on expectations.

So where to start.

What I do is make sure I understand the big picture and exactly, exactly which alternate tunings, what strings, and how the individual player hits the thing with the style and specific technique all important.

Dave will often write on my invoice that the player tunes at times 1/2 step down or DADGAD or this or that and what I do is then try to determine what tuning the instrument will be in MOST of the time and I set intonation with the exact strings this player will use for how they do it most of time. If they detune I detune and make sure that the relief in the neck remains sufficient when we reduce tension. I also recheck intonation and if anything is glaringly awful I may find a compromise between the intonation for that specific string in standard tuning and the drop tuning desired.

Now there are extremes to all of this which are important in informing how we approach the set-up. I had one last week in which the player tuned the entire thing two whole steps down. So as crazy as this sounds for a guitar to have to do the action was raised to avoid rattling strings and the client was advised that the intonation spots on his saddles may be outside the range of adjustment that the instrument was built with and if that's the case there is nothing that can be done other than rebuilding aspects of the instrument and we are not going to do that.

There is also the idea that Hesh here has a PRS that stays tuned Jimmy style for Kasmir since Kashmir is in a difficult tuning to intonate. Or, in other words, sell them two guitars since one will never be capable of doing all things with one set-up.... Kind of kidding here but kind of not kidding too I'm serious as an intonation snob myself I could not live with some of the compromises that have to happen for some of the drop tunings. I would repurpose a specific guitar if I insisted in something very different from standard tuning with the intonation very off.

So to condense some of this. Find out what tunings they use the most. Find out which tuning is most slacked because that one may dictate your action. Do have the conversation with the client about expectations it's important and don't be afraid to tell them they are nuts and even decline if that is the case. More on this in a moment.

I'll add when I was starting out I had a long list of people wanting to give me commissions and I turned down every one. On that list were jobs like this one that are not reasonable if you covet intonation accuracy and great playability in all tunings.

I had a guy in Alaska that wanted me to make a 9 string and I also had people who invented their own turnings and wanted to collaborate with me and have me build the mule to do it.

I turned them all down (and often learned that everyone else had too.....) it was not compatible with my development as a luthier at that time or my goals and I would turn them down today too. Consider what happens when the guitar is not accepted for one reason or another that nine string may be hard to sell to someone else....

I dealt with customers all of my life and was considered a very big deal guy, elephant hunter and rule one that applies here too is slow the client down and have the conversation and try to narrow the list of expectations down to something more manageable. A guitar capable of playing in all conceivable tunings, be intonated correctly and have decent action in any tuning is not possible with the physics of the guitar as we know it. Something will be off and it is what it is....

Find a subset of everything and then you have a slide in the mix too. Traditionally slide set-ups are higher and that's why some people don't have much trouble using a slide on an acoustic guitar the action is higher and sometimes MUCH higher. For example an acoustic with 13's the Martin spec is 7/64th" at the 12th on the low e. My shredder down stairs which is a Suhr is less that 4/64th" on the low e. That's a lot... lower.

I disagree with stiffening a neck so that slack tunings don't change things action wise IF and only IF that stiffening makes the truss rod struggle and be less effective. We will need that rod when Mr./Mrs. I do all tunings leaves it in the back seat of a hot car in Nashville and the neck goes into semi-permanent backbow....

Bryan has much more behind his statement too and that is much more experience than any of us in how to stiffen a neck and not over stiffen a neck. If you knew his exact approach I would bet it's a great approach but for us to throw CF at it because we heard from someone who heard that Bryan uses CF is not advisable. Bryan is a superb builder, a friend and I've worked on his guitars before including the custom he built for another one of our friends and clients the actor Jeff Daniels. Jeff is a drop tuning guy too and was just in our shop last Friday.

Some here will find fault that I'm pushing back that the client is unreasonable if this is being described correctly and the client wants decent intonation in nearly any alternate tuning, that's unreasonable, unrealistic, not possible with the physics of a acoustic guitar and it's also in my view taking advantage of a builder with little commission experience because those who have more experience are going to push back as I am suggesting. And again there is the idea of making more than one instrument too and that may get everyone where they want to go.

So limit the spec, set expectations, decide if it will add to or detract to your own goals building, don't let someone corner you into a build that others would not do for them and never be afraid to help educate a client they often simply do not know and would appreciate someone explaining why in great detail that this instrument will have to do some compromises....

Compromises need not be a bad thing. Ever hear of a Telecaster. Most Telecasters cannot be properly intonated and the shared saddles require compromises. More recently the saddles are compensating for some of this but the vintage ones, the Creedence ones... and many others the intonation sucked and the players compensated with the playing ability.

Brad, every guitar I build the first thing I think about is how it will be strung, tuned and played. And while I do use altered tunings on almost every guitar there are some that I favor and yes, they will be set up a little differently.

First, I always down tune on acoustics. I might tune an electric UP to open A or E, but not acoustics. A few tunings have strings that might go up (open C for example) but in general the strings are slackened which means the tension is also. Before I go any farther I will say that I play a combination of fretted and slide with many of these tunings and I like moderately low action.

I like longer scale guitars for their increased tension and I like flattish fretboards for slide playing. Most of my acoustic guitars get 20 inch radius, my electrics 12 or 16. I typically bump up string gauges from what would be considered "normal" - if a guitar is going to stay in D or G I'll probably run medium gauge strings. A guitar that is dedicated to slide usually gets an even larger first string - often a 14 and my resonators might get a 16. I like an unwound third on slide guitars.

A really useful tool when thinking about string gauges and tunings is this FAQ from UMGF - you can easily compare tensions. I use the 12 string section a lot

https://umgf.com/string-tension-t5339.html

Open C is one tuning that is kind of special CGCGCGe - the bass strings are tuned in the cellar and the 2nd is tuned up. I keep one old guitar in this tuning with pretty heavy strings on the bottom and light on top.

Last but far from least are the twelve strings. I always tune them down two steps to start with and then lower for various open things (think Leo Kottke). I like long scales, fat strings and low tunings - the UMFG FAQ is very helpful.

Hope that helps

I think Hesh has given you some good advice - make sure the clients expectations are reasonable and can be met.
As Freeman mentioned, a long scale instrument generally gives more latitude with string tension (allowing the strings to still sound musical) than a short scale.
Building a neck that is stiff enough to maintain it's shape under different string tensions shouldn't be too difficult unless the client also wants one that is thin and narrow, or if they want an action like a shredder has on an electric guitar.
I like building unusual instruments, but since I offer people "first refusal" rather than taking commissions it has to be something I think is a viable instrument and is not so personalized that someone else would not want it. Like hesh, I try to evaluate what the person's expectations are before becoming involved with them - and whether they are going to be a PITA to work with. So far my spidey sense has kept me safe on the web.

FWIW, I used carbon fiber reinforcement on my personal guitar because it was made to live primarily in DADGAD with some occasionally trips down (in terms of string tension) to Open C, and some occasional trips up to standard tuning. It’s been fantastically stable over the past five years. Of course it’s a sample of one, so it may have also been stable without. I do know that my other guitar without reinforcement struggles a bit with all the changes in string tension.


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We usually determined the lowest tension tuning that was COMMONLY used (a couple of songs in that tuning on set list every show; not the '...ya know... I think I might try 2 steps down with those 9-42's...') which did not require a string change and set up around that tuning. Relief as needed, but that is very much a player versus instrument issue.

We always explained that setup was for specific player, string set, and specific set of tunings (to include capo... partial capos are the parent of many issues in drop tunings). Add a lower tension tuning, swap one or more strings in terms of gauge or brand, and pay for another setup. Unless a performer has a raft of funny stories and one liners to throw out while tuning between numbers, it seems like a better idea to just have a couple guitars along if paid to play... no professional should show up with a subset of the tools required for the job.

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Interesting, never thought about it before.
I think if you set up the guitar to take the least tense tuning and set truss the neck straight it should work fine.
as it will get a bit of relief when you move to tighter tunings.
Plus the straight neck will help looser tunings sound a bit cleaner.
Good luck.

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You just pick up a chord, go twang, and you're got music. -Sid Vicious

One fun solution would be to make an electric style bridge with individually adjustable saddles, but made of aluminum instead of steel (including any screws that aren't tiny m2 grubs) for light weight. I wonder if the two piece style would transfer vibration well enough, where the saddle is mounted on two adjustable-height posts. But you could probably do the style where you feed the strings through from the back (or from inside the box in this case) if you glue a hunk of something lightweight like cedar to the bridge plate and put some big countersinks around the pin holes so you have something to feel for in there.

I do agree that carbon fiber neck reinforcement would be a good idea. It does require more truss rod effort to change the curvature, but the amount of change needed is also less because it doesn't curve as much from other forces either. Hopefully small enough to ignore when changing tunings.