Official Luthiers Forum!

You've probably seen it and I think it was discussed here before.

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyDcf6Tc4gg

I just got a 70's Ramirez 1A in with action at 6.5/32 over the 12th fret and no saddle left. It needs the angle adjusted. My preferred method is to remove the FB and shim it with a wedge but then I remembered this reset method and thought Hmmm.

Reading the comments on that Video it appears some have guitars going on 2 years now after using this method that are still in good shape. But you know how Youtube is...

I trust you all here so I'm asking if any of you have used this method to some degree of success and if it has proven the test of time.

Best regards.

I suspect that the Ramirez 1A has a spanish neck joint, not a dovetail.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Maybe you posted the wrong link?
There's this one form Robbie - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLV8byIQJdw&t=150s
But you need about another mm.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I've done many of those. I drilled 6 holes in the bridge to make 12
this allowed me to plane the saddle block down & lower the action.
BUT not all the 1A are the same .you can do a reverse fret job. That is plane the f.b.
down from the nut to about the 6th fret.(depends on how thick the f.b. is)If you plane & refret
you can change the angle from the nut to the saddle.this with the 12 holes allows for lower action.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Just ignore me

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I’ve often daydreamed about using a method like this. In my mind, the need for the reset is not only caused by the top moving in but also by some of the curve on the length of the back flattening. My dream, never tried, has involved heating, torquing the neck, and jacking the back curve to restore the original geometry of the guitar. Unfortunately, none of the glues I used (HHG, LMI, and Titebond would stand up to heat or steam. For the PVA glues, the temperature would have to be carefully controlled to get the glue to the creep stage but not to release. If I’m bored one day, I may play with a yard sale guitar. But, I never seem to have too little to do. Please give us a report if you pursue this experiment.

Slipping the neck block is called to some a California reset, that is some folks out this way and in California they likely call it a Michigan reset because the practice is not well thought of. No one wants to take credit for it.

Using heat, clamps, pressure and time to intentionally distort the instrument's current geometry and eventually slipping the neck block is what is happening with this method.

We have a client who sued a very well known Guitar store and service center over the damage to their rare Japanese made acoustic with this technique. Everyone lost. The suit was settled for $1K out of court I heard through the grape vine.

So with this said any method that has a tendency to want to return to it's prior state is not a good idea at least to me or our shop it's not.

This doesn't look like it will stay this way very long I'm completely skeptical of the process and like a heat press things have a tendency to return to their prior state in short order. Also notice what he is working on a cheap guitar. Typically there is no neck reset fix for cheap instruments where the economics for Luthier and client will work.

I don't know how to reset a Spanish heel and we so infrequently see one that needs a reset that it's not an issue for us. All of the methods shown or mentioned here I would push back not believing that I would want my name on that repair.

So sorry no answer for you JF and if it came my way we would decline not wanting to get any on us.

This is close to slipping the back but not quite the same.

My understanding is that to slip the back properly, you loosen the back bindings, separate the neck block and a sufficient area of linings from the back, reset the angle, reglue the back/linings, trim the back and binding/purfling ledges, then reseat the binding and touch up any finish as necessary.

Maybe it’s called a California reset because this is Somogyi’s recommended process for his guitars with the doweled mortise/tenon joint he uses? Which against the price of his guitars might be financially practical…

But to OP…that looks sketchy to me…

I have done the CA slip before and promised myself I'd never do it again. Way to much work and the shim or aforementioned re-fret and resurface work much better.

My client and I did talk about shaving the bridge and converting to a 12 hole. That would get him to a high but acceptable to some action of 5/32.

Thanks for the discussion, as in the case of most things if it looks too good to be true it probably is. This is a local guy though and it might be interesting to see if he even wants to try it. I don't see where it would do any harm and for the sake of experimentation I may offer free service if in say a year or so it comes back to it's deformed shape. I'd just love to know for myself if indeed this works.

I do have a cheap Washburn that needs a neck set. It's my wife's guitar and has sat in its case for years. But then it might work on a cheap guitar but not a nice one.

Is the Ramirez a high dollar item?

the 1A is the top of the line for them!

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Mike Collins

FWIW this turned up in my YouTube…

https://youtu.be/UTVzGM1Znv8

Yeah I think that might even be the same guy.

The guitar is valuable and in great condition if not for the action.

I would avoid any steam treatments on that guitar. As Colin mentioned you only need to lower the bass strings about 1 mm (down to 4 mm) and possibly 2mm treble side (3mm) to bring the guitar into typical specs for a classical guitar. A little bit higher is O.K. for some players who don't mind a high action. The O'Brien video Colin linked to is one of the accepted ways to do this. Since classiicals have a flat fingerboard (usually without side marker dots) it is less problematic to plane them down.
I would be inclined to do a combination of techniques to adjust the action. I would plane the fretboard some as O'Brien showed, and then refret with taller fretwire and - taper - the height of the frets from the 12th fret (highest) down to the first first fret (lowest) and lower the nut (to meet up with the tapered fretboard) and if desired drill the additional holes in the bridge to increase the break angle a little. If you don't want to drill the holes you can use ball end strings, tie knots, or use bridge beads
(https://www.rosetteguitarproducts.com/menu ) to secure the string ends through the existing holes and get the same break angle adjustment.
Doing a combination of things means you don't have to change any - one - thing too much, and the adjustments may not be too obvious to the casual observer.
If the saddle clears the bridge enough for the strings not to buzz I would not shave it down. I think leaving the guitar as original as possible while still making it playable would be my goal.

Another O'Brien video that talks about adjusting Ramirez action. The high action was intentionally built in from the Ramirez shop. It allows players to pluck the strings forcefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ek2PDLB6M

When we discussed this video in the past we were talking in the context of cheaper guitars with unserviceable neck joints or where the cost of a neck reset was not viable given the value of the instrument. I mentioned that I may try it on the next beater I find that needs a neck reset but I still haven’t found the right candidate at the right price.

I’d want to try it on a guitar I own, and see it hold for at least a year, before I offer it to a customer.

I think that even though he describes it as a “free” reset, it isn’t really, at least not if a professional does it. Presuming it worked, I would price this service as a fee for bench time, a setup fee, maybe a new saddle, and a fee for storing a guitar clamped awkwardly to a bench or board and eating up horizontal shop space and monopolising clamps for several weeks. There’s an opportunity cost there that needs to be priced in. I can see the cost still being a turnoff for customers who think they can resurrect their campfire Ibanez via the technique.

I will say the guy who made the vid is actually sort of local to me (about 100 miles away) and has been in the repair game a long time. I’m not sure how long he has been using this technique.

Given the fret work I've seen on a number of classicals (to include a recent $10K custom concert classical from a builder with what is reported as well over the 'should know better' number of builds), I suspect the high action claimed as a feature by Ramerez has more to do with labor savings associated with a suspected use of semi-trained primates to hammer in and trim frets versus a desire to give their customers the sky-high action they demand.

A routine job at Greenridge was to repair and perfect the frets on a new classical and lower the action to something closer to playability, with that from-the-builder fretwork, rather than aggressive player string attack, being the primary barrier to a more functional setup. Fretwork as seen from several of the larger classical factory manufacturers and a not insignificant number of small shop makers seems almost an afterthought when compared to even the lower end of the steel string market segment.

I should also mention that there are many classical builders that offer superb instruments with wonderfully consistent fretwork, well set up as delivered new. Our own Mr. Reid's instruments are firmly lodged in my mind as exemplars of this functional excellence, with his finish work to be as highly regarded. I was able to reacquaint myself with Mr. Reid's work during the time I've been filling in at Greenridge due to Mr. Stock's recent absence from the bench. There are others, and I'm sure the repair-focused members here such as Mr. Breakstone could easily add to the list of those classical builders delivering on superb fretwork and setup.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

I have observed poor fretwork on high end classical guitars as well. In fact one was so bad I replaced the fretboard. The fret slots were not measured accurately and some were even angled. The guitar never could have possibly played in tune. But I digress.

I think, if I ever get some time soon, I'm going to try this on my wifes Washburn beater and see how it works out.

I've worked on Ramirez guitars Some from 1928,Barnabe,etc. & American & other Sp. makers.
NONE needed a neck reset ! Near impossible to do -unless it was a bolt on or dovetail! Fleta used a dovetail,he worked on violin family instruments
Work with saddle & tie-block & fretboard to achieve the desired string height.
all makers do it their way !

Mc

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Mike Collins