Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey guys -I have to go study, and read another couple chapters of Mr Cumpianos book, more shop organization, rasps and files to handle with that lovely little dogwood blowdown wood, and jigs to figure out supply lists for -
But I posed a question at another site about Old School construction methods
I hover around the luthier sites looking for information and tips on construction methods, as I am just getting started in the trade.
{although this has been a lifelong dream}
Some tools are just out opf my reach financially right now.
Gladly places like exist, as it helps one who needs information about problems they might encounter, acquire the info nearly immediately, and these forums speed up the learning curve for newbs and oldtimers alike.
   One thing I have spoken with some builders about briefly was the use of construction methods of yesteryear, the low tech but effective methods employed by the masters of old
[in thier creation of thier masterpieces, works that all us luthiers out here seek to emulate with our high tech gadgets and machines].
I was wondering what low tech yesteryear methods of construction people could lay down on a newbie?
   Like most newbs I dont have all of the top tools with which to create my work, and thus tips of low cost but effective construction methods would greatly aid not only to my succesful completion of my #1,
but also direct my care and attention to the materials being used, as these OG methods of which I speak help a new luthier get attuned to the different woods and thier intracacies; more so than just ripping through it/them with a machine, and glossing over it.
Wouldnt you agree?
Someone I know was talking to me about demonstrating a old school method of joining top and back plates.
RusselR wisely suggested the use of a gobar deck
[will do on that one definitely!]
RusselR also suggested I set my guitar on fire!!! - Its not what your thinking, mabye he can elaborate for us if he see's this.
{RR ... Im still busting a gut }

QUESTION: Does anyone else have any tips or forgotten {hand crafted}/low tech (i.e. cheap) methods, that they would like to bring up?
As it would greatly interest me to know some of these Old School methods and it might help me to accomplish my first build more effectively and cost effectively.
Lord Knows that any money from my first sale will be goig directly back into guitar building supplies and tools! Til then......................
Cheers
Charlie

Old school -
Hot Hide glue comes to mind,
Good'ol hand planes
How about a shooting board for joining your plates? I think that is covered in C&N.
Go bars are great for lots of things such as clamping the top and back to the sides, I use it for
gluing down my center strip on the back, as well as all the braces top and back.

One old tool I love and use often is a manual drill, I get much better control than a power drill.
Scrapers are a MUST, I have 3 and use them for everything!

There must be more ---

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Charlie...Consider planes for jointing edges prior to glue up. I also use planes for thicknessing tops as well as some backs and sides.

The neck work can be done with rasps, files, spokeshaves, chisels and sandpaper.

I suppose binding can also be done by hand although I've not done that myself.

I started building with nothing but hand tools. My first purchase was a laminate trimmer for binding ledges. I still do more hand work than machine work.

Best advice...learn how to sharpen chisels and plane irons and it can be a pleasure removing wood where you want to.

Good luck.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I'm a noob, too. I've been at it for a couple years so far with no finished instruments to show for it. Part of this is because sometimes my day job consumes all spare time and energy... But I attribute much of my delay to Jig Paralysis. I love jigs and power tools and drum sanders and radius dishes, but when you're starting from scratch it can kill your momentum trying to build/acquire all that stuff. I wish someone early on had forced me to acquire some good quality basic handtools and then go at it. I'd probably have finished a guitar by now.

So here's my blog post about preparing a scarf joint with a hand saw and a plane. (sorry, just corrected the link - 4-17-06)
letseatpaste38824.3004976852

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

HI Charlie

As Lance recomends a good Plane and getting a feel for using it can be really useful, and I find there is something about planning that is just so satisfying.


To ellaborate on the setting fir to the guitar part, as I told Charlie, this was something my good friend ColinS told me about, I think it was Torres (Imay be wrong on that but certainly one of the Spanish Builders)
used a technique where they preinstalled the back braces into the rim then glued the back to the rim and braces, to ensure the hide glue hadn't gelled they then laid down some alcohol along the side of the glue lines and set it alight. I have to stress I wasn't recomending that Charlie try it, he was just interested in old techniques.

On the subject Charlie, I was reading a book on the history of Martin, and it said in there that when they used hide glue in their old factory they used to have trouble in the winter that when somone came in or out through the external door the draft made their glue gell.

Back on the subject if you don't want to use a hand plane for thicknessing for thicknessing have you looked at the option of using a wagner safety planer and a drill press, whilst not that old school a good method and much cheaper than a thickness sander.

Charlie if you really want some old school I have some F, FF and FFF pumice. It is the same volcanic pumice as used for pore filling in the pumice method except in corce grits. It was use as the sanding media before there was sandpaper. You pored it on a surface and rubbed it between the surface and a hard wood block sheathed in leather.

Talk about Old School

Since i had no real previous woodworking skills, i had to buy a lot of power tools and hand tools to be able to build my numerous jigs, i even built my own drum sander. If i were to start all over again, i'd follow a course on woodworking basics and buy a wagner safety planer for more space so, darn it, i just realized i'm not much help to ya Charlie!

Like most have said, a good plane and shooting board for joining plates and a plane for thicknessing. I was definitely not a pro with the plane so I bought a jointer. I will be taking a hand plane class at the local woodcraft just to try to improve. I hoped to be old school and build with all hand tools but I learned quickly, I am not that good.

Ok Charlie I have agood Old School tool that you should get "A leather Strop" It is a good way to help keep chisel and knife edges in good shape between and during sharping sessions. Also keep lots of leather straps around. I never throw away nice un-tool leather belts I always seem to find uses for them.

Excellent tips - while I have a dremel and a laminate trimmer - I will prolly end up using the plane and shooting board method - also the SafeT planer is something that will definitely be employed at first. I hear you on the homebuilt tools Serge - I picked up Issues 1-78 of ShopNotes which has alot of great tips on shopbuilt tools and jigs - I have to make this first guitar on the cheap, so I appreciate all the input - I used to carve as a hobby, I love working with hand tools and getting up-close with the wood.
Thanks for the ideas.
Keep the ideas coming Im taking notes.
Cheers
Charliewood

I'm building my first guitar (a kit) with an established builder. He's totally old school, which I have found to be great experience. He bends on an old steel pipe, shoots tops/backs, etc. with a 17.5" Record plane. Profiles the sides with a plane, too. Uses only 1 radius dish, for the back, and builds his flattop tops, well, flat. Marks the back braces with the radius dish, then planes them to near shape, then sands them to the correct radius in the bowl. Carves all the top braces with a chisel, a finger plane and sandpaper. Bends the tight cutaway sections with a small diameter pipe that he heats internally with a propane torch. Used workboards, not molds, and in some cases, the actual benchtop itself for the glueups. Has a basic gobar deck, with wood gobars. He's old fashioned fretwork, too. Uses a basic smooth millfile for leveling the fretends, adding the bevel, and leveling the frets. Uses sandpaper and a grooved eraser for polishing them. Up until last week, he inlet his braces into the kerfing with a chisel. Hammers the frets in with, a basic hammer, and a wood caul made "on the spot" to match the radius of whatever fingerboard he's working with.

The only two primary power tools I've seen him use, so far, is an edge/belt sander (small 4x36 Delta) and a bandsaw. It can be done, trust me, I'm doing it. Bill Greene38820.7233912037

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Nice Bill, yeah.............. thats the good stuff.
I believe that your injecting more than glue and nitro-cell into these guitars, your injecting your vibe somewhat.
I know its very scientific.
But like a piece of jewelry thats been worn by someone for 50 years - anything you put your energy into picks up some of it, for sure.
thats why I love true handcrafting
like FrankC says though whether your that good is another matter - its tough work.
Hope I can hack it ooops bad expression.
Mabye I should say I hope I cant or rather dont "hack it"
Cheers
Charliewoodcharliewood38820.7532986111

Well, Charlie, I'm at Stage Zero when it comes to building...but if you end up wanting to have a true novice share things, give me a shout. I'm taking photos of the build process along the way, so I can show you some of these "less jig-like" methods if you decide you want to see them. Just let me know.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Sounds great Bill, thanks!
Cheers
Charliewood

Charlie, just a few comments,

Good used hand plains, spokshave, a few rasps and chisels can do alot of the woodworking. A Dremmel tool with just a few attachments can do your binging/purfling channels, Rossettes with sanding discs you can do detail bridge work, etc. Other than sandpaper, glue and my trusty Wagner Safety Plainer I find not a whole lot of other things are needed. I have a lot of other stuff, mostly to save time not money.
I am looking around for some new sawing equipment and once I find what I am looking for I might just send you some of what I am replacing so you can get started.

Good luck,

Mike

Charlie, as all the others have said, get yourself a few good planes. I got 2 old stanleys off ebay, a 4 and a 6, I payed about 35 usd each with shipping and got two terrific planes. I spent an hour trueing them and think they are worth far more then I payed including the labor. I added a hock blade to the 6, but you don't have to. I used the stanley blade for quite some time.I built a wooden plane, bought another and then there ar finger planes that can be built also. Add to that the safe-t-planer,chissels, scrapers and the spokeshave, which I built cheap, and you are in some pretty good shape. You are playing with a different set of rules, so of course you will need to decide if these suggestions will work. Personally I love planning wood, I am always trying to achieve the thinnest shave I can get. So far Ive gotten down to .0015" in spruce. Some people are easiely ammused . For old school tools learn about them as much as you can and then think "EBAY". the other thing you will need that I see you already have learned from Serge is how to post. 132 post in 2 weeks. Serge has serious competition. This is going to be fun to watch
Mike

Bill,
Tell Brad that Tom Dowey says hello.

Charlie, as Hesh mentioned get a 6" ruler (or its metric equivalent), and I'd suggest a 1M ruler, too, with Imperial on one side, if you're using inches. Others might disagree, but I strongly recommend that if you use more than one ruler, you make sure that they match perfectly. Line up that short one with the long one from beginning to end, and if all the lines don't match up anywhere, get another ruler until they do. Or, use just one ruler for every measurement.

You'll find a 24" straight edge to be valuable. Get a good steel one. Lee Valley has one guaranteed to be within .001" over the whole length (many others make the same claim per INCH). At a good price, too.

A truly flat reference surface is extremely helpful. Again, Lee Valley has 9"X12" granite plates for a reasonable price. I use mine for sharpening, and some leveling, with sandpaper.

The MOST important tool for a beginner, though (and the hardest to get), is patience! I really mean that, and I'm speaking from experience here. If you can adopt an attitude of "it doesn't have to be finished today," and, "right is better than fast," you'll be way ahead of the game! Good luck, my friend!

I ran a CNC built in the 60's, does that count?

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Now Billy I bet that took some operating

Scrapers, scraper planes, cabinet scrapers, curved scrapers, thick scrapers, thin scrapers, big scrapers and little scrapers.

Learn to turn a good hook for the job at hand and use them well. When using a scraper your not making or breathing dust, and given the very toxic nature of some of the timbers we use in this craft, that is reason enough to embrace this simple, but amazingly affective "old school" tool.

IMHO if you don't learn them, you are robbing yourself and your work. I think it is safe to say that all who have come to terms with this simple plate of tool steel never leave them to rust.

Also IMHO, if one works with a lot of high figured wood, again I think it is safe to say that they will be forced to come to terms with burnishing a hook on a scraper sooner or later.

Sandervik/Bacho do a good'n and the most EXCELLENT burnisher is free, just ask an engine re-conditioner for an old cylinder head valve stem from his scrap bin and your in business.



Scrapers = Big back ache, least heart ache.

Cheers

Kim

It's perfectly possible to build without power tools, and is very satisfying. I have built a guitar without any power tools including using a router plane to cut the truss rod channel and gramil knife and chisel for the binding channel. The skills leaned and the feel for the wood and it's grain structure gained are invaluable.

I build both guitars and lutes now and the lutes are completely built without using power tools still, I even don't use sandpaper on them, just scrapers and dried shark skin (shagreen) to smooth the surfaces.

OK, nowadays I tend to use the SafeT planer and Drill press sanding disc to thin plates, although I still on occassion use my planes, just love shavings, and I always square stock using the plane, sides are taken to near profile using the block plane.

One of the finest builders you'll find, our very own Joshua French, has only 4 power tool the most powerful of which is his power buffer (POWER BUFFER!) and he does virtually all of his building with edge tools so it is perfectly possible to build 'MASTER' quality instruments without dimming the national power grid.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Tom:

I'll tell him today, as I'll be puttin' on the back. Now, how did you know I was hanging out with Brad?

Bill



[QUOTE=Tom Dowey] Bill,
Tell Brad that Tom Dowey says hello.

[/QUOTE]

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

First off thanks to everyone who chimed in,
before I was injured I was a woodworker so I do have "some" tools, "some" experience, and a "tiny bit" of that patience you spoke of.
As for the amount of posts in a short time - Serge need not worry, right now Im sourcing the materials and getting the info I need to get started,
once I get rolling on my projects I will be doing more of the 'check in' and 'howdy doody' from time to time here at OLF - like most of the guys here.
Hopefully I'll post the occasional pic if all goes well, and almost certainly post the odd
*^^#$^$ **& &^* $$*   @#$%^&*   #$%^&* #$%^&* 
OMG-whadamygonnado!?!?!?!? Thread.    
Thanks MSpencer, thats kind of you. And everyone else, almost everything posted here has been really valuable, I am working on building my own plane right now, and there are plans in ShopNotes for another few tool projects I am looking into as well, but I have a hell of alot of work to do, so buying might be better.
Also need to get those sharpening skills down.
Cant wait to get started but its like a full time job just getting prepared!...
Cheers
Charliewoodcharliewood38821.765474537