Official Luthiers Forum!

That whole higher standard thing is interesting…
I have seen many instruments over the years that came from “professional Luthier“ shops that were between $5000 and $30,000 that left a lot to be desired . Here’s a few examples of the top of my head:
One of my customers bought a Selmer style guitar from someone who is known to be one of the best makers of those type of guitars when you brought me to examine I was like what the heck is this? On the back of the Guitar there was a pleat and hard to describe but it was a bubble look like someone shoved the softball under it. It was ridiculous. I said you actually bought this guitar from him Oh yeah, I know it’s great he said, but he gave me some money off because of that.
I would’ve tossed that guitar in the garbage it was ridiculous.

Then there’s another guy who’s been around for a long time who sells to very famous people and throughout the years his craftsmanship has been very interesting. I mean there are miters, that aren’t even in the same room no less touching he’s in the 15 to $30,000 range

Then there’s an extremely famous Luthier, who been a piece of wood for a backstrap, and it was burnt and he sort of left The burn marks in it

About 30 years ago I was in mandolin Brothers and I was examining a guitar by one of the most famous Luther in the world. He is now and he was then and there’s a brand new Guitar and nitro lacquer finish and for some reason the finish was great everywhere, except the back wherethe pores were completely unfilled. Look like there was one coat of lacquer on. It could never figure that one out.

so there you have it nobody’s perfect.


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You don't need to sign in to read the content on the forum. If you want to see new ideas and ways of doing things (good and bad) they are free for the taking (or leaving). You don't need to offer an opinion or advice which may make someone's butt hurt and inspire an acrimonious bout of name calling. The luthier who has a business to run and a living to get, gets very little benefit from participating in fora even if they may find some small value in following them.
I am grateful for the Pros who do participate and contribute to the discussions. As with any forum it helps to have a thick skin.

Thanks, Hesh. I sure hope I don’t come off like that. My role here is 100% a learning one and when I question anything shared it is in that mode of learning. I’m certainly aware this is all for sport. No-one is getting paid and in fact some pay for the privilege to be here.

I try to go out of my way to attribute back what I learn from here. Example today I linked someone on a Facebook uke page back to Terry Kennedy’s awesome method of using a robosander to cut the cheeks of the heel on a neck. I used that method with great success many times.


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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I think I accidentally pulled this thread off topic. Not my intention, sorry to the OP. Good to hear people's thoughts though.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

No worries Brad you're a mensch, a friend and I feel better about the OLF's future knowing you are here. You've made lots of contributions too and I'm sure we all appreciate you very, very much.

Once again, I'll insist on saying that without John C, Dan E, Frank F and then everyone here, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now. So I’ll once again take the opportunity to thank everyone sharing their knowledge here. You guys and gals are the real poop, and this place holds a very special place in my life.


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse

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Pierre Castonguay

Hesh wrote:
" ...there is nothing for us here but the opportunity to help folks like someone once helped us."

Those of us who have been in this game for a while can remember when lutherie was all 'secrets'. Lots of folks knew a few pieces of information, but not enough to get very far. Good makers seldom said much about how they got results. In the steel string world factories set the standards, and there were no notable American classical makers. Groups of wananbes got together and found that if they shared what they knew they could assemble enough know-how to get someplace, and organizations like the GAL were born. By the time the web came along we had folks who were pretty well versed in the art and science of lutherie, and willing to share. They didn't all agree, of course: it's still the case that if you ask 25 luthiers the 'best' way to do something you'll get 50 answers. But we all know how much we've learned from each other, and how much we don't know and have still to learn. I've learned a lot from my students over the years, and even gotten several worthwhile tidbits on line.

As Dunning and Kruger pointed out, in order to judge competence you need to be competent. Education is generally the enemy of certitude. A competent person will admit they don't know everything, and could be wrong. The less incompetent people know the more they're sure they're right.

The result of all the sharing is that individual American makers are widely seen as some of the best luthiers around. Sharing has worked, and I like to think it will keep on working, so I keep on sharing.

My corollary is that I’ve watched more than a few friends lose their love for the craft by spending a small fortune building up their tonewood stash, tooling, etc, for the day they go pro rather than just enjoying the journey.

However, that said, when it comes to being a guitar maker, is it possible there’s a spectrum?

My four year old loves dance. She’s a dancer. But she won’t be on the next season of Dancing With the Stars.

I’m a guitarist, but I’m not going to compare myself to John Mayer or The Edge.

My wife’s a swimmer, but that doesn’t mean I’m saying she’s competitive with Katie Ledecky.

I think of myself as a guitar maker because I make guitars, but I’m not going to position myself anywhere close to my heroes in this craft or start selling them aside from the occasional friend who asks, “hey, would you make one for me?”


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Alan Carruth wrote:
"The result of all the sharing is that individual American makers are widely seen as some of the best luthiers around. Sharing has worked, and I like to think it will keep on working, so I keep on sharing."

I might take exception to this being an "American thing".
The beauty of the internet is that it transcends borders and "time". Many people from all over contribute to the knowledge base and the fora archives are often available to anyone who will avail themselves of them. Many other fora, such as the MIMF and ANZLF can be accessed by anyone with an internet connection (in a country that doesn't limit access to such things) and the level of lutherie knowledge is raised worldwide.
Because of this I think we can find exceptional luthiers in many parts of the world where before there was no one in this endeavor.

Of course the internet has made global sharing easier, but so far as I know the impetus was from organizations like the GAL that started here in the US. I could be wrong.

I love the effect it has on people when I tell them what I do at parties. Oh... wait... that's the other job. For the most part, no one cares and few can correctly spell the job title even if they have some inkling of what it involves.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

I smile when I see the struggle some of my colleagues have with the term “luthier”. The word has been embraced in English (as we do), but is derived from French. It’s not always been the case, but I now live in Québec where I work full time in instrument building, restoration and repair. So, what else would I call myself?


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Looks like this post got derailed a bit but nonetheless fun reading. lol

The original intent of this post was to find out why people rush to call themselves luthiers or guitar makers when they start building while that’s not really their jobs. Most people don’t do that for their hobbies. Something must make them feel that being a luthier is something they want to tell the world.

An example, Joe is a butcher and on his FB and IG he has been known as Joe Smith for years. Then he joins the OLF and builds 2 guitars. Is title on social media changes to Joe Smith, Luthier (or the like).
What’s the driving factor?

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I’m curious, is this question primarily driven by Instagram? Because there is absolutely no end to the number of Instagram accounts where it’s charles_spokewagon_luthier.

That being said, I remind myself that I’m in an echo chamber there and the world is a big place. I follow something like 1k people on Instagram and they are all guitar related. The distortion field is in full effect!


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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

BTW - I’m pretty sure I’m about to go change my instagram handle to charles_spokewagon_luthier


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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Peterm wrote:
"The original intent of this post was to find out why people rush to call themselves luthiers or guitar makers when they start building while that’s not really their jobs. Most people don’t do that for their hobbies. Something must make them feel that being a luthier is something they want to tell the world."

I don't usually tell people "I'm a Luthier". I don't find it to be a particularly "Glorious Occupation". Luthiers have to deal with picky clients and are generally poorly remunerated for their work.
If someone asks me what I do these days I say "I'm retired". If someone asks me what my hobby is I say "I build musical instruments" (which for the most part are stringed instruments). I build guitars, double strung tenors, octave mandolins, mandolins, dulcimers, ukuleles, small harps, and odd ball things like travel harp guitars, Baritone guitars, stick dulcimers, cigar box ukes, Formica bodied instruments and and a few other less serious instruments.
Some of my guitar playing friends might call me a luthier, and "amateur luthier" might be a more succinct way to say "non professional builder of musical instruments".

I don't really see that in this community a lot but I know what you mean because I have seen it elsewhere. I used to do a lot of caving and climbing and there were all kinds of people in that community that wanted to inflate themselves as 'experts' in the field. You take them out to a vertical cave with a 600ft waterfall drop into total darkness and soon realize they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. I think the term was 'gear heads'. they were more interested in collecting the gear than using it.

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of personality disorders out there. Some of them may find a niche in climbing, auto racing, golfing, cycling, climbing... and Luthiery. The driving factor? Some sense of false self worth perhaps. Maybe narcissism.

I remember some time ago some guy started a luthiery school and when I looked into it the guy had built a few guitars and had no credentials what so ever to be an instructor.

I Don't know, but I would not worry too much about it. The market will ultimately decide.

Yep. Not limited to over-reachers. Professionals can have such issues, too. We all have our baggage.

hallo all together,
I`m german, and here we have guilds as mentioned above. You have to make a three year craft training and during this years you have to go to the violin making school in the town Mittenwald 3 months every year to learn all about the needed sciences like mathematics, all about laquer, wood and so on. After working in the business with a master for some time you can go to the school in Mittenwald for one year to become a master. Then you are , translated, "Master of plucked instruments". That means you have to be able to build guitars, Zithers, mandolins, lutes, plucked oriental instruments. But not violins and that sort of instruments. If you make violins and that stuff, you are called violin builder. The translation of the word "luthier" is "guitar builder". In the meaning of the word everyone who build guitars can call himself a luthier. In germany that is forbidden. Only if you have done the craft training you are allowed to call yourself "luthier".
For me myself: I will never call myself a luthier, not even guitar maker or guitar builder. I say now and will ever say: I try to build guitars as good as I can. If someone likes the outcome of my efforts, I`m happy. I am the most critical person on my work, meaning the craftsmanship. I am the first to judge the overall sound qualities, but after that I let judge some professional guitar players to get an unvarnished feed back on my work.

I retired in march, and now I live a 35 year old dream: building guitars. I don`t have to earn money with my guitars, so therefor I have the time to be patient and deeply thinking about what I am doing, practice every step on scrap for perfectioning the different necessary skills before going the next step on the guitar. My focus is on as perfect craftsmanship as possible for me with high respect and love to the material I am working with, and in the result hoping to get a good sounding instrument which is a pleasur to hear and play.

Again, thank you to all you folkes, luthiers and amateurs, who share their profound knowledge with us here in the OLF! Special thanks to Hesh, Alan and Colin! I have learned so much from you!

Back in the days when I ran a high volume guitar repair shop in a major music store I used to have to explain to customers what a "luthier" was frequently, and always responded with the simple but incomplete explanation of "someone who builds or repairs guitars". As a term it never seemed well known enough to the general public to not have to be followed up with an explanation, so when I (mostly) left the repair business to make classical guitars I simply used "guitar maker" on my label.

Nowadays I embrace the term "luthier" again, as anyone who is interested in my work will already understand it. I don't believe it is a lofty or impressive term, but it fits what I do, my level of education and experience, and my capabilities; even if I no longer choose it as my main source of income.

The term I take issue with, that is thrown around social media recklessly by both players and luthiers, is "Master Luthier". I'm lucky to know and have known some of the greatest guitar makers of the past two generations, and even those who have passed their masters examination (Germany and Austria) who absolutely have the right to refer to themselves as "Master Luthier" rarely if ever do so.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Juergen you are very welcome and thanks for the thanks you made my day!

I think this is a social media problem, not a lutherie problem. I highly recommend avoiding Instagram, Tick Tock, Facebook, and whatever else is out there.

Some may be surprised to find that I breathe, walk, and even function in society just fine without having a Facebook account. But don’t worry, I still have an uncle who tells me all about how liberals suck the brains of good Christian babies to create an army of LGBQ immigrant Zombies amassing at a secret base just over the border —so I get all the important Facebook content anyways. At least I’m spared people calling themselves “luthiers” after building a Les Paul with a screw on neck from a Chinese kit.


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