Official Luthiers Forum!

Section II

We have already placed the instrument on our bench, tuned it to pitch and then adjusted the truss rod. If the neck was way off it’s a good idea to tune to pitch once more and again make sure the neck and truss rod are were we want it.

For where we want it see Section I.

I like to cut the slots with the old strings still on it for a number of reasons that include:

1) We want our new strings that we will be putting on the guitar to not have gone through any trauma so that they don’t break early on especially during a gig for gigging musicians.
2) On classical guitars the string lifter may leave visible marks on the nylon strings and this avoids that mattering since the old strings will be tossed. Always lift nylon strings with your string lifters behind the nut.
3) In the sequence, remember this is a sequential approach to set-up in the sequence once done with the nut slot cutting we will be cutting the old strings off and cleaning/conditioning the instrument.

How We Tell Which Slots Are Too Low, Too High, Just Right

The method that I’ve used and there are a few methods but this is what works great for me and has worked complaint free on thousands of customer instruments.

We fret and HOLD a string between the 2nd and 3rd fret and at the same time we use a free finger to pulse the string over the 1st fret crown. See videos. The distance from the bottom of the string to the 1st fret crown is the “gap” that we will be addressing and reducing.

We are going to close this gap in most cases unless you already have a slot that is too low.

And not to be a nag but remember to be tuned to pitch OR the turning that the customer may use.

The string should never be in contact with the first or any fret crown for that matter while open (unfretted). We do want a gap.

What will be different in what I am showing here is our shop has a “signature” if you will where we take nut slots lower than we ever see from anyone else in our area or anywhere for that matter.

The fretting and holding method while pulsing over the 1st fret also serves to isolate the string’s relationship to the fret plane into a relationship with only the first three frets. As such any other issues with the fret plane are taken out of play.

Be sure to practice this it’s very easy and can tell you immediately visually with an audio assist when we reach a certain stage how high (or low) your nut slots are.

The following video shows my initial check of the nut slots with the method that I just described to you. They are all high by the way. This is what we do when an instrument comes in the door as well to make sure that they are not too low and that would require raising the slots or shimming the nut depending on the instrument and economics.

https://youtu.be/lD9FLProywY?si=aeyZyiRSwuqwQveR

Why Do We Cut The Nut Slots Very Low?

This is one of the most important things and the greatest value that you can provide for yourself or whomever is the player of the instrument. By taking the nut slots very low you are reducing the effort required to fret a string greatly AND you are reducing the amount of string stretch that occurs in the first 3 - 4 fretting positions.

By reducing string stretch (and making it a whole lot easier to play) fretted notes are no longer sharp when they may have been before, the instrument plays noticeably more in tune and it’s of course way easier to play.

I can’t tell you how many times we’ve heard a client trying out their newly set-up guitar exclaim that for the first time ever they can reliably make an F barre chord.

As you know from my rants in the past here I don’t see any need for compensated nuts on steel string guitars. If you were to take an unset-up instrument, measure the error from string stretch and high nut slots, record it, cut the slots properly and repeat the measurements you would see what I am describing here. Reduce greatly string stretch and guitars play much more in tune.

We get asked about compensated nuts and push back suggesting that the client’s nut slots need attention and that they will find their issues solved when that is done. Out of thousands of these complaints we have never, never had someone come back and say they want a compensated nut anyway and did not notice a huge difference from cutting the slots.

So why don’t factories and many builders cut the slots properly and low in the first place? Because it is one of the most highly skilled operations in Lutherie and one swipe of the file too much and you will need to fix and raise the slot. Factories don’t want to train and pay skilled labor and builders with no insult intended are far too focused on the woodworking of building a guitar and not the fact that someday this guitar will actually be a tool for a musician and how it plays may make or break the success of the instrument.

For classical guitars it’s a bit different and back to compensated nuts a compensated nut can help with intonation issues but the amount of help required will be greatly reduced from cutting classical slots low too they just need to be a bit higher than steel string slots.

How Low Do We Cut Each Slot?

Here’s where the art of this comes into play because there is no set number or spec for this and it is instead my favorite kind of Lutherie where we do it by feel and sight. Feeler gauges and measuring tools are useless now be sure to push them far enough from your benched guitar that you don’t forget and scratch anything…

For the high e and b we want them so low that when Dave and I have measured this before which was not easy we may go to a gap above the 1st fret crown of 0.0005” or less and again it is all done by sight and feel with an audio assist.

Now I don’t want you folks too go this low and this is NOT a competition. We have light cured dental fillings to repair a nut slot if we go too low you don’t. So we can go for broke because of our safety net, you can’t.

It’s my belief too that in terms of benefits of cutting slots low you’re not going to tell the difference between a slot that is 0.0005” and one that is 0.002” so let’s go for 0.002” on the high e and the b.

A suggestion for the rest of the strings is one half the diameter of the string for the gap plus maybe 1 or 2 thou again to give you guys a bit of a safety buffer.

The bone dust and CA glue thing to raise a low nut slot is not a good or reliable method if you go too low so let’s try to avoid it entirely.

With all this said our goal is gap wise over the 1st while fretting and holding between the 2nd and the 3rd:

High e 0.002”
B 0.002”
G half the diameter of the string plus a thou or two and the same for the remaining strings. If the string is a 0.016” we want a gap of maybe 8 - 9 thou. That’s the thickness of two purple Post-it notes…. Green ones too…

https://youtu.be/nBnJkJuGd-g?si=_OgnjJhQPbPVI_Il

https://youtu.be/WK3gqLXqfaY?si=VxwFm80dxMinynm6

The Tink

So you’ve heard me bring up the “tink” before. As the string, particularly the high e and b get lower on their way down to perfect nut slot depth nirvana when you pulse the string over the 1st fret you will begin to hear an audible “tink” sound. I love my tinks they verify for my old eyes that there is indeed a gap here, it’s minimal and I am nearly done with this slot. If no tink the slot is too low and the string is laying on the fret or the string is way high.

The more bass side strings don’t tink and instead make a different metallic noise.

Files And Break Angle

We like and have used the StewMac and Grobet gauged nut slot files for nearly 20 years now. I recently had a couple dozen of mine replaced free under StewMac’s warranty and that was a very cool thing to benefit from. Thanks Stewmac!

I do like to take a micrometer to my files when I receive them and I may write on them the actual width which can vary a tad from the stated width. So my 0.030 may have written with a fine point Sharpie on it 0.029 and yes I am wrapped too tight…

V shaped files have been discussed many times on the OLF and it’s the same ole song and dance each time where someone doesn’t want to get the proper tools for one reason or another and instead of admitting that V shaped files suck and make a poorly shaped slot they at times dig in and we have to fight this argument back again and again.

V shaped files make a V shaped slot that binds/pinches the strings on the sides, harms tuning stability and prevents the string in some cases from bottoming out in the slot. When a string does not bottom out in the slot and then the player frets it very hard in the fist position it may then bottom out and hit the first fret crown even when open because it was binding in the dang V shaped slot. This is very common, sadly and completely preventable if Luther’s use the proper tools.

For my sailor friends a "jam cleat" is a cleat that holds a sheet (rope) firmly in place against a load. Jam cleats are V shaped slots..... I rest my case.

Conversely a gauged nut slot file makes a U shaped slot with no side binding/pinching if you cut the slot with the proper sized file for the strings used.

So please use the proper tools for the job and Lutherie does have some associated costs that you should be willing to accept as our reality.

Break angle: When I started I read I think from Frets.net that one half the head stock set back angle should be the angle of the nut slot.

This does not always work and a Fender electric is a great example where there is no headstock set-back angle.

There are also numerous guitars mostly electrics where the set-back angle is insufficient to be adequate if divided in two.

So with this said I like to make my slots in the range of 4 - 6 degrees back angle from the string plane. If my angle is too shallow the vibrating wave of the string will breach the nut slot face and travel into the slot resulting in that Ravi Chankersore tone of a Sitar. Bet you didn’t know that the sitar tone is because the vibrating string is permitted to vibrate IN the slot and the vibration is not terminated at the face of the slot. That’s why and how.

So in the videos notice my old hands as I hold the file at maybe 4+ degrees in the examples and craft my slots.

This is another reason why we like the Stewmac and Grobet (no longer available) files they are long enough that we can easily see our cutting angle where shorter files are more difficult to determine the cutting angle.

Hesh’s Nut Slot Cutting Technique

So in the video we have already learned about the cutting angle, 4 - 6 degrees and we have learned how much space we want to see over the first fret crown. We’ve learned why V shaped files sucks and should be avoided and we of course now to have the rod adjusted and the instrument tuned to pitch.

See all the dependencies here - perfect for a sequential approach where the order of operations is dictated by dependencies.

The first time I take a file to a slot after a quick look at the height of the string now you will see me use the file to scrap the left side of the slot on the down stroke which is repeated by scraping the right side of the slot on the next down stroke.

I am testing the slot for file binding and slightly expanding the slot width at the same time. When I see my 0.013” high e file does not bind I can begin to lower the slot bottom.

I use my two smaller fingers on each hand as “training wheels” if you will to occasionally touch the board and this dials-in my file cutting angle. Try it, it works well and adds constancy to your angle.

When I cut the slot I am scraping the sides, making the slot wide enough for one greater size string so for a 0.012” I will cut the slot so a 0.013” string will work fine in the same slot with no binding. All slots should be cut with this in mind that the player may want to go up in string gauges at some point and this should not require a new set-up for the nut slots. It may require raising the action though more on that in section IV.

I’m shaping the slot properly and cutting at the desired angle AND I may also tip the file up, pay very close attention because this can be dangerous to the headstock and increasing the angle of the slot as the string exits the slot.

When I increase the angle of the slot on the back side of the nut I am VERy careful to not run the file into the headstock and as such I shorten my file stroke dramatically and pay very close attention to what I am doing. You could clip the corners of the files too, I think Dave does that.

So to review I am leaning the file left, right, filing at 4ish degrees and increasing the cutting angle in the back of the slot while all the while checking my progress for the depth of the slot frequently. Don’t go too low….

Additionally as I cut the slot and the string comes down closer to the frets I will again tune that string up to pitch. Why?

Because metal strings arc out of the slot and that arc changes with a change in tension and pitch on the string. If we are going to take things very close and we are we need to make sure that all of our variables are taken into account.

Also you may see me pressing the string in front and behind the slots as I cut them. I am making sure the string is not binding and hung up in the slot. With my side scraping this never happens to me but it’s a good idea to do it anyway you are new to this.

Once all the slots are cut I play each string moderately hard to make sure there is no sitar sound.

Once the slots are cut I detune, cut the old string off and pitch them and we move onto Section III.

See previous videos you will see my technique in action, scraping the left, the right, tilting the file to knock down a hump in the slot and not sticking the file end into the guitar... Can't have that...

Strings 1/2 Proud Of The Nut Slot

This is a myth and a properly cut nut slot can be multiple times deeper than the string diameter or so and function fine.

We know who back in the day started this myth he is a dear friend and he admits that it was just something to shoot for for him back in the day when he was learning. Folks back then had to teach themselves there were very few ways to learn Lutherie. He has no specific reason why it benefits anyone or anything.

We don’t subscribe to this and what is FAR more important is the superb playability and improved intonation that results from low nut slots.

Going to post some more videos for your review that show evaluating nut slots, cutting nut slots, etc. It does not matter if this is an electric guitar, a bass guitar, a mando or a b*njo the technique and the physics AND the benefits are all the same.

Bass after cutting
https://youtu.be/u-34bb3mYuo?si=7ARQVzk2k9iWoJYR

Bass before cutting
https://youtu.be/fZ-aK5cx9Go?si=jVWi_4Pmuef3YFCs

Cutting the B string
https://youtu.be/_vLTocWfeOg?si=XYUL3eaCDhr2FSBR

Cutting the high e
https://youtu.be/ZmL0VZo02Z0?si=JRjYkXnkQ85NxUyu

See ya in a couple weeks with Section III of IV

Question Hesh. If the first fret has wear grooves (but not bad enough for a refret) do you use the bottom of the groove as your measuring point?

Also, do you often observe a few thousands of “settling in” on a freshly cut slot in the first week or so of tuning and playing?

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Hi Terry - When there is a divot in the first fret crown I use the top of the divot as if it is not there to measure my progress. If there is a next step in the servicing in the near future such as a fret level and recrown the top of the divot will be the high point anyway maybe even minus a few thou for the leveling process.

If a refret is in order we always include and make a new nut with the proper height nut slots for the new fret height.

No settling in has been observed but not all manufacturer nut materials or shapes wear or cut... at the same rate. For example I find Taylor nuts to be on the soft side and I have to be careful to not cut too much too soon. Gibson nuts have a smaller peak than most nuts, less bearing surface when the nut is still full height and my files will take that down very fast also requiring more frequent checking of progress and caution.

Many of the Korean instruments from Ernie Ball to PRS SE to some Gretch use a nut material, it can be black or white that seems to want to resist my files and then all of a sudden the file digs in so I watch for that too. Bone OTOH is very consistent unless it's from someone who process their own and did not degrease it enough.

So no settling in but it is important to 1) have the slot wide enough plus a tad for the strings so the string is fully seated as we cut, check, repeat and 2) press the string as we cut just behind the nut and just in front of the nut to make sure we are fully string seated. Otherwise false reads may happen. With my side scraping I don't see this issue which is one of the reasons I make sure my files are not binding by a side scrape once in a while on the way down.

When I was learning and Dave's level of low seemed impossible for me to reliably cut and at times even see... I wondered not about settling in but if we take it down to say 0.001" which I am not advocating for folks here might new wear lead to sitar stage quickly. I wondered when the thundering hoards of past customers would come in with low nut slots. So far so good, shingles has been out for nearly two decades and I can't say we are making many new nuts and when we do I can't recall it being because we took things too low in the past. We fill nut slots too with dental fillings as you know and I'm not seeing any increased need for this either. This actually surprised me a bit and then in time I could take mine down that low too. It's just one of if not the most highly skilled hand tool thing we may do in our shop.

Wanted to add one more thing. I've been playing a lot in the last several years. I now have arthritis in my hands and it really sucks. Having my personal guitars set-up very well with low nut slots is one of the joys of life to me now. They are effortless to play and play in tune and as someone who can't handle poor intonation and will stop mid tune and fine a file or screw driver it's really, really nice to play a guitar that has an excellent set-up.

This is the real good animal waste product. Thanks for it all hesh.

Of all the guitars I've set up using this method I've never had one come back for nut wear, in fact I haven't had any come back. Players love well setup guitars. Over half of my clients have come back to bring me one of their other guitars, several clients will come in for a setup every time they get a new guitar, I've done about 12 for one guy.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm puzzled by the 0.0005 gap comment. My ballpark target has been to match the gap between the string and the second fret, while slapping a capo directly on top of the first. Generally this gives me about 0.005 (ten times your measurement) but a little less on an short tight instrument like a mandolin.

Is it possible that 0.0005 is a typo? Or, could my instruments be playing better by a factor of 10? I find that hard to believe, since if I cut a slot too low (but not sitting on the first fret) it may measure 0.002 or 0.003 but buzz badly, and requires only the lightest touch to fret at the first.

Schnitzel!!
I almost missed this.
Thanks Hesh.

_________________
Wake up and smell the rosewood!

Daniel not a typo and Dave might say that our gap can be less than 0.0005" with no buzz and again this is very difficult to measure. He describes it to our students and me 20 years ago nearly now as a "sliver of light" and he's only looking for the presence or absence of same. Again though I don't want you guys going for this 0.0005" because you can't reliably fill a slot back up with a solution that is as hard as bone and as permanent, we can with dental fillings.

I can't comment on your method that's not a convention that I've ever heard of and it's not what I know. I said early on this is our method and what we do and what I know there are other methods.

But I can address your comment will my nut slot if it is ten time lower than your nut slot and still not on the fret play ten times better?

Answer: No, "better" is relative and closing this gap and the benefit from same is not a linear thing in terms of benefit or even feel. I think I can feel the difference between maybe 0.002" but I would be stretching it to be right about it all of the time. Do I benefit greatly from the last 5% of perfection, no it's diminishing returns. But I'll also add that when I get there you do appreciate it and everything plays literally like butter.

I have several friends who are my age and older who are collectors too. I've been commissioned to set-up all of their instruments and this means dozens and dozens. We all go to each other's home and jam and none of us have to bring a thing we use the guitars and amps (if not acoustics) of our pals when we get there. In all cases their guitars and my guitars are indistinguishable in feel and how they play in tune.

Lastly a nut slot say on a high e or b that is 0.005" is pretty high in our world and you would be able to feel a difference playing a nut slot that is 0.002 or less or at least I certainly would. Another way to tell the benefit is to fret hard and note the intonation error, you are going to have more than I do and I think it would be noticeable. A player can of course adjust and use a light touch even without touching the board of course.

So no typo and you are not alone of the several dozen who have come to our classes when we offered them, we no longer offer this it was too difficult for the benefit to us..., many of them were amazed too.

I'm forgetting how many but we have had students who built 300 - 450 guitars that are in the wild and they were responsible enough to be open to the idea that they may not know it all and they found out that they didn't know it all and said so in their thanks to us.

Guitar set-up is a speciality and something you can take very far past where most people can even find a good set-up where they live. It's also a very difficult thing to explain to others in so much as it's like trying to explain to folks something that just has never been in their experience before.

It's a huge part of our business and our minimum service too and I do over 600 a year working part time now. We also spot a lot of other work too in the process such as bridge lifts, fret work, flat saddles, electronics work that is failing and more.

Lastly I can't convert what you do numerically into what I do but if you are saying that using my method that is not mine by the way it's likely the most commonly used method out here your gap is 0.005" for say the high e that is a gap that is noticeably high and not low enough in our world. We have guitars that come in that way from the factory and that gap is a big part of the reason they need a set-up and noticeably benefit from same.

PS: Mandos benefit just as much from going low and in fact a bit more since one is attempting to successfully fret two strings at once any mechanical advantage is a welcome thing. I've done two Guild 12 strings this week they also benefit even more because of multiple strings fretted at the same time. Nashville or "high" tuning same deal even more benefit. The only time I intentionally go higher with the nuts slots is for slide guitar OR someone playing heavy metal and tuned to low C.

Hey Gregor I was afraid of that so I am sticking it in the "Guitar Building Forum" for now for visibility the threads can be moved in the future when folks are done with questions.

Hope you are doing great too!

So one of the frustrations for me in the past of trying to share what I was fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to learn and then do every day for years now was the few folks who learned something that is not right and perhaps flat out wrong and they would push back often many times over time when these subjects came up. Most people who make their livings in Lutherie were smart enough to walk away. I wasn't.....

So regarding the argument that I used to have here and had likely ten times and perhaps even more that a V shaped nut slot sucks and has nothing but down side in the wee hours while writing this toot I had an idea.

Below is the "jam cleat" that I mentioned above that some people, very few think makes a suitable nut slot shape. Again for one of these folk this was a hill that they were willing to die on seemingly.

The reason that the cleat uses a V shaped slot is to seize and hold the rope not let it sit in the slot but not snugly, not actually pressed to either side with no binding like we want a nut slot to do.

Instead a jam cleat the more the rope is pulled the deeper it migrates into the slot and the tighter the grip of the cleat. When we see string breakage at the nut it's almost always V shaped slots too.

So hopefully this example will inspire folks to recognize that your X-Acto file set is not good enough and in fact will damage a nut by making V shaped slots.

Thanks for responding Hesh. My odd method with the capo was me trying to find a target - if I capo a guitar with high slots it plays far better, so couldn't I measure that height and aim for that above the first fret?

I'm still not sure I understand how this is possible - If I cut a slot down to 0.002 measured by feeler gauge, I can practically fret it just by breathing too hard. And it buzzes terribly when played. That's still 4x the height you're describing!

I am with you on the factory nuts and am equally frustrated by it, especially on mandolins - virtually any entry-level mandolin is basically unplayable. I took an octave mandolin in for a fret level at the local "best shop" and he told me he would set the nut to a spec of 0.018. I told him not to bother cutting the nut at all then! But that kind of spec is not for cheap guitars...Taylor's specs are similar and they have a well-deserved reputation for being better setup than most.

I am willing to take your word for it - makes me want to stop by Ann Arbor and witness this for myself...

Hi Daniel: When we use a capo we are also creating a zero fret set-up only with the first fret on the "speaking length" side of the capo (the part we pluck) being now the zero fret.

If you capo and open strings or one of them buzz either the neck is in back bow, the action is too low or the string is not tuned to pitch.

So if you can capo and the rest of your set-up is decent enough, action height, fret plane shape aka relief it should not buzz at all unless of course the attack is too heavy. But one way to simulate the feel that will result from taking the nut slots down as I described is indeed capoing say the 2nd and then playing from there. The ease of fretting is going to be very similar to what I am describing.

Steel strings AND others arc over a fret which is why we can fret and not have the note rattle on the next subsequent frets. The string climbs the crown of the fret that we are fretting and then before it heads back to the bridge it has to curve back in that direction and that is the arc that I speak of. This is how a zero fret works by the way which I do not recommend it's typically a cheap, import set-up to avoid the skilled labor necessary to cut nut slots properly and the down side is I can take my nut slots actually lower that a zero fret produces making it play easier. I can also go higher for slack tunings and heavy hitters.

So you said you can nearly fret it by breathing too hard that suggests you are not tuned to pitch and there is not enough tension on the string. Yes to the idea that fretting it is super easy with minimal effort no to the idea that it buzzes terribly. If it does buzz terrible your truss rod is out of adjustment and/or your action is too low.

So this is kind of the big point and difference in my approach to set-up and that is that all of these things have dependencies on each other and again there is a sequence to doing things that if observed and followed what you are experiencing won't happen.

So I would Daniel first tune to pitch and then adjust the truss rod. For cutting the nuts slots with the method described here action height is not all that important yet because when we fret and hold between the 2nd and 3rd we take the rest of the neck completely out of play.

Do these things in this order Daniel:

1) tune to pitch
2) adjust the truss rod and if you want more discussion on adjusting the level of relief since no one asked any questions about that I am always happy to help my friend. I suspect this is the issue for you by the way but I can't be sure from here.
3) cut nut slots as described in this thread.

Most new instruments especially inexpensive mandos have sky high nut slots and you're right they are unplayable. The 0.018" is also sky high as you suspected and you also ran into a problem in our industry and that is many places that provide set-ups don't address the nut slots or they don't cut them appropriately and well or at all.... This is BS... and not what people should be receiving from a skilled Luthier.

Did you know that most people who visit a luthier may only do so once in an entire lifetime? I surveyed my customers and this was the result. So we had better provide real value we only have one shot at it.

Bottom line is that well cut nut slots are perhaps the very greatest value that a skilled luthier can offer a customer in a set-up. You've noticed when they are not cut well so let's get you experience nut slots that are cut well.

I'm going to look when I post this where you are because you are indeed invited to come and see how we do this in person and I am happy to help.

Ok you're a bit of a drive.... to get to us. If you do have reason to come this way I certainly could show this to you either in our shop or my home shop if it's a weekend. I live 1/2 an hour from where our commercial shop and have a shop in my home too.

Try the suggestions above and see if this is making more sense to you?

Yeah it all makes sense! I want to be better at this, so appreciate your patience with me. I re-read your first two posts and I think I misunderstood you - when you talk of the 0.0005, that is the gap between the string and first fret when it is fretted between the second and third...? I was thinking height when the string is open.

I'm technically not following the rules since the instrument I'm messing with is not a guitar - it's a Northfield archtop octave mandolin...more or less a 22-inch-scale archtop guitar so I figured it was close enough!

I've got my instrument tuned to pitch, with relief set at...crap, it seems to be <0.0015 (my thinnest feeler). Because since you posted the first section I changed my strings from PB to chrome flats and tuned from GDAE to GDAD to work on some Nickel Creek. Now we are good to go, back at ~0.005, a little higher than your recommended 3-4 thou because of the shorter scale. Onward!

Yes that's it you've got it now Daniel that is the height of the first string when fretted and held between the 2nd and 3rd fret. You're right if that was the height of that sting open it would buzz to beat the band, literally Good going!

Any stringed instrument most of this stuff applies to too. One of the terms we use is "speaking length" with refers to the string from the face of the nut to the face of the saddle and the part of the string that we want to vibrate. All fretted (and bowed) instruments have speaking lengths, break angles and lots of what I discuss here applies to them too.

Rules, what rules, I hate rules

For relief we really just want some and there are times and this is something everyone should read there are times when I intentionally set the relief JUST for cutting the nut slots to near nothing so if I cut too far I have a shot at it still being OK when I increase the relief. Training wheels if you will but that also adds some complexity to folks new to this so I did not bring it up before.

So at some point Daniel you will have a very low nut slot that when you fret it it frets like butter with virtually no effort and the note still rings loud and clear, rattle free.

I just got done with my evening playing and pulled a 1976 ES175 off the wall and played it. It has all that I am describing here, very low nut slots, minimal relief and pretty low action for my attack, I have a moderate attack so very low action is too low for me. It was a joy to play and a good time. Great guitar for Stormy Monday and jazzy stuff and CSN too since they played a lot of arch tops.

Glad you figured this out and good going Daniel!

I have gone past the tink on my higher strings with no issue to my ears. The guitar stays in tune and plays great in the first position. I'm 70 so my hearing loss may be missing any buzzing ont those strings but, it suits me.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

In my experience the frequency of the 'tink' increases as the gap decreases. Since our older ears (I'm 72) tend to lose the higher frequencies that may be what you're experiencing. I got hearing aids a few years ago it opened (re-opened?) up a whole new world of high-frequency sound - especially on stage!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Yeah the tink is kind of a funny thing and my only reference for the tink is to know that I have not gone too low. If it no longer tinks on the high e and b I'm laying, the string is laying on the 1st fret crown and too low.

I hear the tink start to happen at maybe 0.010" high and continue until there is constant contact with the fret and then there is no tink.

So the only value as I see it of the tink that is reliable is the presence or absence of the tink.

Not to confuse folks but it is possible to go so low that it does not tink and it still rings clean open. Some guitars will do this, others not so much and you get the sitar sound. This is lower than low but I am not sure why this happens. Dave says if it rings clean it's not too low. For you guys though I don't want to encourage going super low it's diminishing returns and there is no reliable way to raise a nut slot if you guys don'w use dental fillings.

Steve I never noticed that before and will listen for it in the future. It makes sense that the frequency will rise since the speaking length from the first fret crown to the nut face shortens as we reduce the slot height. I think I just learned something, thanks my friend!

Hesh, isn't the very moment where you loose the tink when you hit the slot depth equivalent to a zero fret? We know zero frets can work.

I've lost the tink with one light stroke of a nut file and I always freak out a bit thinking, crap, it's start over time.

But so far, I've always lucked out and they've played well with no buzz. But I know it's dangerously close to too deep.

So don't freak out and throw the nut in the recycle drawer until you can give it a try.

And a big thanks for this great tute Hesh, takes a lot of work to get into this much detail and answer questions to boot.

Appreciated!

_________________
Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

Thanks Brian my friend very much appreciated. Steve Smith and Brad Combs are also part of the toot team here and they deserve thanks too.

So yes you can lose the tink and still not have it buzz but this is not a reliable thing because often when you lose the tink it will do the sitar sound and buzz. No telling and it's a combination of lots of factors if losing the tink is going to be a problem or not. The amount of relief is one of the variables. I at times will adjust the rod for near perfectly straight so if I go to far with a nut slot and lose the tink and gain the sitar sound sometimes, not always adjusting the rod for the proper level of relief which in this case it more relief may just provide that 0.0003" or so of clearance that makes the sitar tone go away.

I can't answer this question is it not the level of the the zero fret that is reached because of string arc over the zero fret. We don't have any idea how to measure that reliably and it is very much in play with your excellent question. So all I can say is I don't know, good question.

Back filing the nut is also another way to take a low slot and sometimes, not always gain some height over the first fret and regain the tink. When we back file we increase break angle and then the string arc may have enough arc to clear the first fret. When back filing learn to prevent the file end from stabbing the headstock. Short strokes are your friend here.

Another trick I do is more winds on the tuner posts on many guitars especially Fender style bolt on necks and for the G string. Increase the break angle, it increases the arc and can clear that fret too.

If any of these tricks of the trade are employed be sure to think through the idea that the owner of the guitar or the next person who may work on it, restring it, etc. may be clueless to what we have done and why and as such may not recreate the tricks I am describing here.

I won't let work leave our shop unless the uninitiated will be able to be successful in maintaining the instrument going forward. We solve problems for folks not create new ones.

Here's one Dave and I have done with success too and it's when your nut falls off.... which they always do on Seagull guitars and others where there is no nut channel with only a flat spot. If we only need maybe 0.0005" more height for the slot clear fret one regluing the nut without pressing it all the way down with the drop of medium CA the CA can act as a very slight shim of sorts and raise the nut. It works amazingly well and may be appropriate for the instrument on less expensive instruments.

These are all tricks and things we do in the trenches to make stuff work especially when there is no budget to do things such as make a new nut or even raise a nut slot.

Zero frets do work but they don't work well and most people associate them with cheap guitars which is not what any small, custom builder wants someone to think of our wares.

Some years back the zero glide product was sold to someone new and they called me and wanted us to get behind this solution looking for a problem.... I told them I inherited three of them still in packages because the prior music store in our location could not sell them. I went on to describe what is wrong with a zero fret and how we will never create or install one for anyone but we would service one and replace one if it has to already be there. The guy was upset with me, it was now a family business I think he told me and his frustration was apparent that he had just acquired a product that he unexpectedly ran into push back when promoting it.

Lots of luthiers have opinions and experience and some of us will even seek to prove what we believe and when we do we become perhaps a bit too militant over what we have learned. Bounty paper towels being put through scratch tests and evaluated under a microscope was one example of the lengths we go to to make sure we don't scratch someone's guitar. Maybe I need to get a life

What's wrong with a zero fret is that it's all compromises. Since we cannot adjust the zero fret height (easily and for each string individually) what may be near perfect for the high e may be 0.003" too high for the B and so on and so forth. At least with a Floyd Rose set-up the nut can be shimmed on either side up or down and we even take them off and grind them down below the level of working and then shim them back up to perfect height. Can't adjust a zero fret at all.

There are also two different implementations of zero frets and a lot of people don't know this. One implementation is to use the very same fret for the zero fret as the rest of the board has installed. Another implementation is to use a 0.002" higher fret for the zero fret. I have commonly seen both implementations and the one that is 0.002 higher with string arc the strings end up much too high for our liking.

Brian if you are experiencing losing the tink although I don't recommend going that far for others you are also experiencing a VERY low nut slot which is very cool to read and hear for me. You obviously have an understanding of what's happening here on a bunch of levels, good going!!! Sure it's very detailed but it's also physics which is the real attraction to me.

Guitars are mini physics labs for those of us who get a kick out of this stuff.

Sorry, if I missed it above, but I have a question. I understand the need for the "tink" clearance at the 1st fret, if fretted between 2 and 3. This makes up for the ramping effect of the string going over a fret, vs. the lack of ramping of the string going over the nut. I have used this method for years, in setting my nut slots.

If you capo at the 1st fret and fret between 3 and 4, should you get the tink at fret 2? The ramping effect should be created by the capo. Same question moving along the fret board. Capo at the 2nd and fret between 4 and 5, and check for tink at fret 3, etc., etc.