Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm officially 0 for 2 on binding. Binding was a major disappointment
on my first guitar, and it came out even worse on this my second guitar
(first acoustic).

First time I used black plastic binding. It bent easily enough while putting
it on, but my ledge was pretty poor, and it would up being very uneven in
depth when looking at it from the top.

This time I used sapele, cut from an extra practice side. I bent the
bindings on my pipe and got them *pretty close* to the shape of the
guitar body (certainly closer than the sides were when they came out of a
fox-style bender). I was much happier with the ledge this time.
Unfortunately, *pretty close* wasn't anywhere close enough. I've got
horrible joints all around between the binding and the body; I guess the
binding was just too thick to be "pursuaded" into place. But not even
that, the joint along the sides was semi-poor too (though not
approaching the horror of the binding-back joint).

I guess I'm going to order some plastic binding and then re-route the
ledge and install the plastic...at least bad joints can be hidden by
dissolving the plastic with acetone.

To make things worse, the end graft was also a complete frigging disaster
- horrible joints and then I sanded down too far and messed up the shape
of the guitar at the bottom a little. I also chipped out some of the sides
outside the end graft mortise with chisel slips. Fantastic! Only thing I
can do there is try another mortise and a bigger (huge) end graft and do
it right this time.

ARRRGH!

Man, and I was feeling really good when I got the box closed up!

Hi Jay,
Take a deep breath and walk away from it for a while.
If you want wood binding,don't give up-figure out what you are doing wrong and try it again.
The nice thing is you can do it again and it can come out better or even really good.
What thickness are you bending at? The thicker ,the harder it is to coax it into the ledge.
Why is the ledge not consistent?
What type of tape are you using to pull the binding into the ledge? I use 3/4" strapping tape.You really need to pull that binding into the ledge-after you tape it,push on it-you shouldn't feel or see any movement under the tape.
Good luck

I've only done one, but the binding went great. I'll throw in with Hesh.

Make the sides true or your channels will be uneven.
I used .060 binding, and only bent them "close", by eye, to match the side profile. Bent them on a hot pipe. And, here's the screwy part, ran the rosewood through a pan of boiling water (yep, a rolling boil) prior to gluing them. They were HOT. It makes the rosewood pliable, and gives you more working time.
Rather than use commercial binding tape, I doubled up on the basic 3M blue low tack, painters tape. Was plenty strong (and cheap).
Started in the back, moved to the front.
Used a scarf joint, and not a butt. Looked cleaner to me, and was easy to fit with a regular razor blade.
Oh, one other thing...I found I HAD to put the purfling in at the same time as the binding, or the binding wants to pull away from the lower edge. I assume you're doing all this simultaneously.

Give us a rundown on what you're doing. Maybe one of the binding experts will weigh in. Williams? Is Williams here? Has anybody seen Williams?

Bill

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I know what you mean. I worry more about binding a guitar than anything else.

A couple of quick points.....

It helps to use something like the Schneider Gramil from LMI to scrib the binding channel on the sides and plates first before you rout. Then you will be able to see where you need to go a little more after the routing is done.

Test fit the binding with masking tape to make sure you like it before you glue.

Once you get it right you'll feel justly proud!

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Jay, all the advices received so far are excellent but before you attempt anything else bud, listen to the first one from Brad, take a deep breathe and walk away for a while and come back to practice on scraps before the real thing. I'm saying this because i understand how easy it is to get ambitious on our builds after seeing all the great guitars of the OLF but as Bruce said to me once, it might just be a blessing that is just around the corner waiting to happen on you!

My first bindings were such total mess that i had to fill with epoxy and some beads to at least have somewhat of a decoration so, somehow, i can relate and feel your pain my friend.

Now bud do take a break from it, nobody else but you is going to fix this and it will still be there in a couple of days when you're ready to do it, so i'm gonna be sending you all the positive vibes you'll need.

Serge

This is one of the few parts of building that need a jig to do well. There are many out there but you have to use one.
   I will be happy to help you if you want to call me.
john hall
blues creek.
   

Jay, do what I do! Go in the corner, sit down and cry! Scream, kick, it works wonders!

Also, You might check the sharpness of the corner from the bit. If there's a radius there it will hold everything out. Hope this helps!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

What I've done is to go to my local cigar store and get a nice all wood empty cigar box to practice the binding process. When I'm done, hopefully I'll have a nicely bound spanish cedar humidor.

Also, fibre bingings are easy to bend and work, not too expensive, and available in 60', so one piece can go completely around a body w/o any joints.

CrowDuck

_________________
Chris Nielsen
Soquel, CA.

Look close at the joints where the are bad, is the binding flush at the bottom ledge and is it flush against the vertical edge of the side or linings?. If the answer to both questions is yes then the error is likely in the channel. If the answer to either is no the the error is likely in assembly. Wood binding require more clamping force than plastic. When binding the back in particular as you get closer to the upper bout the plane of the body is falling away but the bindings are bent in a single plane (unless you bent cross grain to accommodate) the natural tendency is for the the binding to want to pull away from the bottom edge of the channel in this area. Now the binding has spring back just as the sides do. so the natural tendency is for it to pull away from the vertical edge.

I use binding tape fore my clamping. the way you apply the binding tape makes a big difference in the holding ability. The way I do it is to first place the tape on the outer edge of the binding. pressing firmly down into the channel. then run my thumb don the tape quick and firm to attach to the side. while still pressing down on the tape and binding a the top outer edge I repeat the same thing except in on the top. this pulls the upper edge back to flush if it is sprung out any.

the toughest spot to get it to stay flush is in the waist. I take two pieces of 2" pvc pipe x 2" long attached to a quick clamp bar clamp and clamp in the waist area after tape up just enough to insure the binding will not pull away in the waist. Do not clamp hard if you do this.

Thanks for all the tips and encouragement. I've been working on the
guitar a couple of hours every day all week since I've been home with the
new little one, so I'm going to take a break on it for a while. I'll order
some plastic binding and not touch it until that comes in...get me excited
about working on it again.

The ledge on the first guitar was bad because I carved a slight arch in the
solid top, but I didn't carve a recurve near the edge. That made the ledge
nearly impossible to route. The ledge on this second one came out OK - I
think it was more problem with the binding than with the ledge.

I actually used CA to glue on the binding, so I didn't have to use any tape
to hold it on. With the plastic binding I'll use duco and blue tape.

Thanks guys,

Jay

You don't hate binding...the binding hates YOU! But if you make friends...sooner or later you will be able to get along. You need binding and binding needs you. You belong together...

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

"Ebonnnieeee annnd Ivorrrieeee"....you know what I mean...you and binding just have to understand each other...by the by, I always chamfer the bottom edge of my bindings slightly, just so the would-be sharp corner doesn't hold it out from the channel....helps to keep things vertical and snug top and bottom...good luck Jay, and call if you need anything from Collierville!

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com

live together in perfect harmony, side by side on my piano.......ya gotta love this guy! Now i'm heading back to my shop with that song in my head!

The real key to binding and I wish more people would talk about this is preparation, it's the one part of building that still makes me super nervous. Get a good jig like John Hall suggests and you will get much much more consistent results.

However regardless of what tool you use you need to spend some serious time going over the channels in detail to make sure they are all even and clean. I finally found a method that works for me like this:

1. I lay out all my binding and do any needed glue ups before binding (like gluing the bottom purfling to the binding in some cases). If I'm using wood then I bend it and get everything cleaned up and ready to go.

2. Using some scrap I tweak my binding cutter until I get a good fit. Then I take two full passes with it at each stage, One thing learned the hard way is to make sure that the bearing has a really smooth surface to ride on if your using a tool like John Halls, don't ask how I know

3. Now take some scrap binding and check all the channels and make sure the binding sits nice and tight, I use a file to make any adjustments. Just take your time at this point, your patience will be rewarded.

4. Personally this is when I cut my end graft but it's purely a personal choice...

5. Because I use CA like you, I put some shellac on the channels to prevent the CA from running into the grain of my top and back. Just a light coat will do.

5. Now I fit the binding in and using good brown tape from LMI fit and tinker the bottom first and when it's nice and tight I *lightly* ca it in place.

6. Now I fit the top and repeat the same steps above.

7. Now I do the cutaway (if needed) and the end graft.

8. Now I go back with some thick CA and fill any gaps and let the whole thing dry for at least 24 hours before I touch it again.

9. I use a sharp scraper to level it down with the top and back and then use a sander like Mario to level the sides out.

Binding is one thing that I've really had to work at and I'm still learning how to do it right, some people seem to just pick it up but I've had to fight and learn it the hard way, it's never been easy for me at all so your not alone

Hope that helps...

-Paul-

_________________
-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] live together in perfect harmony, side by side on my piano.......ya gotta love this guy! Now i'm heading back to my shop with that song in my head! [/QUOTE]




HA!



Doncha hate that? How bout..."Oh Mickey, you're so fine...you're so fine you blow my mind...HEY MICKEY"!!

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com

Stop it Larry!!

Man now I have both of them running in there at the same time.. in stereo no less...

And take THIS:

We're heading for Venus (Venus)
And still we stand tall
Cause maybe they've seen us
And welcome us all (yeah)
With so many light years to go
And things to be found (to be found)
I'm sure that we'll all miss her so
It's the final countdown...
The final countdown
The final countdown

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

-Paul-

_________________
-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Okay, you leave me no choice....

AnnieareyouokayareyouokayareyouokayAnnie....

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com

Oh! Oh! Here she comes!
Watch out, Man!
She'll chew you up!
Oh! Oh! Here she comes!

She's a Man eater!!

Top that!

(If you can)

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

[QUOTE=ecklesweb] The ledge on the first guitar was bad because I carved a slight arch in the
solid top, but I didn't carve a recurve near the edge. That made the ledge nearly impossible to route. The ledge on this second one came out OK - I think it was more problem with the binding than with the ledge.

I actually used CA to glue on the binding, so I didn't have to use any tape to hold it on. With the plastic binding I'll use duco and blue tape.
Jay[/QUOTE]

Jay what style of guitar are you binding? You mention "arch" and "recurve" -- suggests its a Les Paul style or an archtop. Also what kind of ledge cutting set-up are you using?

You mention you are going to give it a go with plastic. I use CA and packing tape like Brad suggests regardless of the type of binding I am doing. I'm not sure Blue tape is the way to go even when using plastic binding.

For what its worth -- I do mine pretty much the way Hesh describes. If you tape it all down with packaging tape you can clearly see if you are getting a tight fit. Once you've got it all taped down -- remove a piece of tape -- wick in CA -- retape...until done.

Another potential problem could be your binding is too proud of your top -- when you tape -- it pulls the the bottom of your binding away from the ledge.

I've got a step by step written with pics that explain how to do it. If you are interested I'd be happy to email it to you (or anyone else who is interested) -- just send me a PM.Anthony Z38844.0180555556

I just saved a thread called " i hate bindings!" WOW! one of the best threads on this subject that i've seen here, thanks to Hesh, Michael Paul, Anthony and everyone who participated and gave plenty of tips, Anthony, please e-mail me your info! Do yoy still have my e-mail address? I'l PM you bud!

Serge

[QUOTE=L. Presnall] [QUOTE=Serge Poirier] live together in perfect harmony, side by side on my piano.......ya gotta love this guy! Now i'm heading back to my shop with that song in my head! [/QUOTE]




HA!



Doncha hate that? How bout..."Oh Mickey, you're so fine...you're so fine you blow my mind...HEY MICKEY"!!

[/QUOTE]

How about: HA HA HA HA Stayin' alive! stayin' alive
HA HA HA HA STAYIN' ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

or Do a little dance, make a little l**e, get down tonight!


Can ya do bettah?
Serge Poirier38844.0297337963

[QUOTE=Billy T] Oh! Oh! Here she comes!
Watch out, Man!
She'll chew you up!
Oh! Oh! Here she comes!

She's a Man eater!!

Top that!

(If you can)[/QUOTE]

Okay, but you asked for it..."Ninety-nine, red baloons, floating in the summer sky...."

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com

Mickey was the hardest to beat so far but how about:

Our house, in the middle of our street, our house...!

Or

She's Freshfresh, exciting...she's so exciting to me