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Sitting here thinking (always dangerous and for the most-part unproductive) listening to Howlin' Wolf banging out 'Little Red Rooster' and the question came to be, basic and important, of Why do you use different tops-Sitka, Englemann,Redwood, Cedar etc., what are expecting from the different woods visa vi sound, tone and with what backs are they most compatable?

Sitka is a good general top, you can get bad Sitka from Alaska, the best I have is from Canada, Ed Dicks.

Englemann is a good top for fingerpicking. It's pale in comparison to Sitka which has more color to my liking and medullary rays too.

Adirondack is probably the finest tonewood for sound production available for steel string. The limited supply can be somewhat coloful, streaky, knotted (you have to cut around them), and pitch pocketed. Wide Grain, you name it. But when you tune up a set of strings on this stuff, get ready to smile big time. (You can tell I like it.)

Now western red cedar, warm, beautiful, not as strong, mellow, broken-in, fingerstyle or light rhythm it's fantastic. To work with it's soft, sometimes brittle, so can be a pain.

Redwood, Carpathian, European, German... well, someone else will have to chime in on those.

There are a host of generalizations that can be made about the different
soundboard woods. The only ones I think are useful are that each board
has its own particular properties and that each builder brings out those
properties differently.

A good approach is to build several guitars with one species, get to know
it a little, try slightly different things. Once you've got some experience
and come to your own (tentative!) conclusions, then work on consistency.
There are so many different choices for both soundboards and backs (not
to mention bracing schemes, body styles, and so on), that it takes
discipline to develop a real sense of what you can get the wood to do. I
wasted a lot of good wood in my early guitars -- I didn't know what I was
doing and I kept experimenting with different materials, so the learning
process was confused. Only after I settled down and built with only a few
woods could I really absorb the lessons the guitars were giving me.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Rick Davis]

A good approach is to build several guitars with one species, get to know
it a little, try slightly different things. Once you've got some experience
and come to your own (tentative!) conclusions, then work on consistency.
There are so many different choices for both soundboards and backs (not
to mention bracing schemes, body styles, and so on), that it takes
discipline to develop a real sense of what you can get the wood to do. I
wasted a lot of good wood in my early guitars -- I didn't know what I was
doing and I kept experimenting with different materials, so the learning
process was confused. Only after I settled down and built with only a few
woods could I really absorb the lessons the guitars were giving me.[/QUOTE]

Good advise Rick. Thank you. I talked to Bob Gleason of Pegasus Guitars a while back and he mentioned the advantages of just building one model for your first several instruments for the same reasons you listed above.

I agree with Rick in this too, there are many variables.
For me, I use the same exact bracing scheme in all my guitars. Then, instead of coming up on my own, I went with the Martin D from their blueprint which comes with the Martin kits out of Nazareth.

LMI has some good generalizations on topwoods, just read under each type of wood to get their take. Then some luthiers with far more experience that I have good general characteristics of each species listed on their website. Here is one such luthier's take:

John Greven's Top Wood Page, click here.

OK so you knew I’d have an opinion on this didn’t you! This is just my opinion so don’t shoot the guitar player!
As with anything to do with luthery there is no best wood, only the best for the guitar that you want to build for the style of playing that you want to do. So for one player Sitka would be the wood of choice whereas for another it would only be the best wood for getting the apple logs going in the stove. The soundboard is probably the most crucial element to a particular guitar's sound so the choice of wood species must be right for the sound and playing style you want

European Spruce (Picea abies)
As its name suggests, this species of Spruce grows in Europe, and it is a wood that has been used for hundreds of years in the construction of stringed instruments. Good wood is now a rare resource but worth the hunt. European Spruce is a very strong resilient wood with clean, clear overtones and a great depth of tone. It is generally more responsive than Sitka Spruce but still with good headroom so is ideal for smaller and larger guitars wherever a pure, bright clarity is required, suiting fingerstyle players particularly. Alpine Spruce is a pure milky white colour with darker winter growth lines which can be almost invisible or a contrasting brown colour. It s not always possible to find cosmetically perfect wood now.
I like Germany or Swiss wood, but some Picea abies is now being sold from the Carpathians which many people are comparing to Adirondack. Although there is a completely different species from the Carpathians and Caucasus Mountains with which it can be confused.

Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis)
It is still fairly easy to find straight, even grained pieces. Sitka is one of the strongest and most dense soundboard woods, meaning that it works best when played firmly and it certainly has the greatest headroom of all the common species. Lighter examples tend to give a rich but warm edge to an instruments sound whilst denser pieces can be brighter but always rich in tone. Sitka can sometimes be a little unresponsive for smaller instruments unless you are a particularly strong player. The wood of choice for most flatpickers. Sitka ranges from pale to dark straw colours so is often chosen by people who like an aged look to the soundboard.

Adirondack Spruce (Picea rubens)
The North American species which is perhaps the most similar to European Spruce. It was taken up by early American acoustic guitar makers for this reason and first rate wood has since become very scarce and sort after, some variation in grain width and colouration (these factors are not significant tonally) is now normal. Adirondack Spruce combines the rich, bright overtones of Alpine Spruce with the punch of Sitka and its great strength allows it to be thinned down for a very responsive instrument but with loads of headroom for dynamic players. Visually it is very similar to Alpine Spruce but with generally less pronounced winter growth lines and a relatively wider grain.

Englemann Spruce (Picea englemanii)
Fairly readily available in higher cosmetic grades. Englemann Spruce is visually very similar to European Spruce but with paler lines and very regular grain. It has a slightly lower density than the other spruces making it a very responsive top wood for fingerstyle players, with a full, open tone and clear trebles. It can also work very well for larger guitars designed for accompaniment work, producing a guitar that is more responsive to gentler playing than Sitka.

Caucasian Spruce (Picea orientalis)
I’ve never seen this wood offered for sale by tonewood suppliers in the US. It grows in the Caucasus and Carpathians, the wood I have is pre-war wood from the Carpathian Mountains. It does everything that other European spruces do but with the benefit of being able to be thinned more for a more headroom. It generally has a wider grain than P. abies and can not be considered as cosmetically clean as the better grade US spruces but it sounds like aged Adirondack, I love it!

Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata)
Fits into a totally different tonal category to the Spruces. Cedar has transformed some of the possibilities of the modern steel strung acoustic guitar; giving fingerstyle players the type of responsiveness previously only found in Classical guitars or very old and well played steel string guitars. Cedar has a relatively short grain making it weaker lengthways than most Spruces but its low density means that even though it must be left at least 10% thicker it works wonderfully as a soundboard material. These properties lead to a sound that is immediately open and responsive even in a new guitar, with a tone that is very rich and fruity with an explosive warmth. Cedar excels for fingerstyle guitarists and indeed is a crucial element in many contemporary UK guitarists' sound. It does, however, have less headroom than the Spruces making it less suited to hard flatpicking and strumming. Softer so care in handling.

I know absolutely nothing about Redwood!



Some combinations that I like

European Spruce and Mahogany
Rich, responsive and balanced; these woods give a lovely balance of rich woody overtones and sweet warmth allowing a multitude of fingerstyle techniques to flourish and suiting modern Celtic styles particularly well with Spruce and Mahogany's natural presence. My personal favourite! (I bet you couldn’t guess that!)

European Spruce and Indian Rosewood
Indian Rosewood gives a deeper, darker sound than Mahogany with a clear, solid midrange and rich bright overtones for a classic tone.

Cedar and Mahogany
Mahogany gives the Cedar a very rich and present sound without too much lower midrange making this guitar ideal for altered tuning fingerstyle work as well as earthy blues when fitted with lower tension strings. (My second favourite)

Cedar and Indian Rosewood
A contemporary take on an old design; Cedar and Rosewood give a big, warm, sustaining tone that really sings. A classic DADGad guitar.

Adirondack Spruce and Brazilian Rosewood
Go back in time for a deep, dark sound with ringing overtones.

Remember if you ask 100 lutherers, their opinion then you’ll get 101 answers.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin, I knew you'd be along. Hey, you didn't share your love of Sitka!Dickey38421.5943518519

Colin must type a lot faster than I do. It would have taken me a week to write up that post.

Thanks Colin! That was informative and a pretty good rundown of the different soundboard woods.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

[QUOTE=Dickey] Colin, I new you'd be along. Hey, you didn't share your love of Sitka![/QUOTE]

Oh, yes I did Bruce, as I said, it's great for getting the apple logs going in the stove!!!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Come to think of it I have all those thirty year old sitka door panels in my garage. Kindling for life, thanks Colin, and such a joy to split, "Bing, bing!Dickey38421.6007175926

Bob, I've got four or five versions of Wolf doing Little Red Rooster, the best is the 1970 London recording which had Eric Clapton on guitar, Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts from the Rolling Stones on Bass and Drums and, Stevie Winwood on organ, Wolf spends the first 2-3 minutes telling Eric Clapton how to play the guitar!!!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I have to say, I don't quite get the "Carpatian" Spruce/Adirondack Spruce thing... sure Spruce (p. abies specifically) that is grown in two different places is different to an extent, but its still p. abies. I tend to think the reality is just that some steel string makers are discovering "European" spruce. I wouldn't imagine its anything really resembling Adirondack, except that its Spruce and makes good instruments. Anyone care to say whats really different in Carpathian Spruce compared to Alpine Spruce? What makes Spruce from this particular area any more suited to Steel string guitars than any other euro Spruce? It boggles the mind... but maybe I'm merely missing something.

jfrench38421.668587963

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=Colin S] Wolf spends the first 2-3 minutes telling Eric Clapton how to play the guitar!!!
Colin[/QUOTE]

I saw this in a later interview with Eric, He said it really made him sweat, trying to please this master of the blues. I imagine it would make me sweat too.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I was just down in the basement last night listening to tap tones of my Engelman tops that I bought back in the early 90's. Don't really have anything to compare it to, but I liked what I heard. It sustains some high harmonics.

Having read all of the comments, they are all true but it still comes down to the individual piece of wood which is why alot of people do things like deflection testing, Chaldni glitter patterns and such. Every species has its own unique quality but an individual board could be a great or a lousy example of that species.

Also even when a wood has a reputation for a certain type of sound or use someone will come along and change peoples thinking. Virtually no classical builders will build with Sitka but then John Gilbert got very good results from it. When Ramirez started using WRC for classicals many where skeptical but now most builders offer spruce or cedar models. IF you read the early issues of GAL, there were articles about "trying" Englemann and other woods that we take for granted.

There are a bunch of other top woods that have not been mentioned that each are different and unique...Douglas Fir can sounds great, old growth Hemlock would surprise many (but try to sell a guitar made with it without people thinking Home Depot 2 by 4's). There is Redwood, Cypress, White Spruce, Tamarack, other cedars and firs...all have been tried.

For some interesting articles check out the GAL Resource Book 2, Lutherie Woods and Steel String Guitars. It is very interesting reading and is taken from articles from those early issues of American Lutherie (GAL).

I agree with the idea of stick to a wood that you like that is generally suited for the type guitar you are building and build several guitar and get a feel of what you are getting out of the wood. Every experienced builder has at some point thinned a top too much or too little, braced too light or too heavy...it is only with time and experience that you get tuned in to what you are getting and learning. Some classical builders build from the same plantilla (base size and shape top) for their entire career but over time build better instruments because they are learning and hearing the difference as they perfect their craft.

Eric I was tapping on three 1959 model Sitka tops this afternoon, before I tossed them to the top of the pile near the ceiling. I liked what I heard too. Pssst, don't tell Colin. Imagine, I was seven years old when that tree was sliced up.....

Shawn... I think you make an interesting point about "trying" englemann. We all take that for granted as a tonewood option.....

Just think about how many times the Carpathian discussion has circled recently. Lots of folks are saying it is marketing hype, while others swear by it. I think time will tell, but one thing is for certain, if enough people start using a type of wood (and get decent results) the buyers will eventually come around.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

>very rich and fruity with an explosive warmth

Can you get it in a bottle?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I just tried englemann on a dred, paired with EIR. So far everyone that has played it seem to like it.

I am now building a aussie blackwood and englemann OM that sounds like it is going to turn out ok too. Finishing the binding on it this morning.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Hey, that last post got me out of groupie status!!!!!

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

With glee, please allow me to make a complicated subject even more mysterious! Why not add a few more soundboard variables, including double soundboards and sandwich tops? How about a layer of Nomex between that spruce just for $hits and grins? OLE!

Kenny Hill spoke about his experiments with nomex and he has tried spruce exterior and cedar interior and cedar exterior and spruce interior and in each case the sound was different, a blend of a cedar/spruce sound.

[QUOTE=Shawn] Kenny Hill spoke about his experiments with nomex and he has tried spruce exterior and cedar interior and cedar exterior and spruce interior and in each case the sound was different, a blend of a cedar/spruce sound.[/QUOTE]

Hill has much more experience, but I would like to agree with him nevertheless! My main instrument is a Breslin cedar/nomex classical that uses Engelmann braces in a hybrid Rodriguez pattern; its timbre is somewhere between a typical spruce and cedar instrument. With Corum strings that emphasize brightness, the guitar is the most balanced cedar instrument I have encountered. Most people still recognize the inherent cedar timbre, but some people who haven't actually seen the guitar think the soundboard is spruce! One thing is certain: nomex lightens the soundboard, increases volume, improves harmonics and sustain.

I recently commissioned a spruce/nomex guitar that's due late this year. I considered avoiding the double top design with this Engelmann spruce guitar, since there is a risk that spruce/nomex will sound too much like cedar/nomex. Breslin convinced me that the projection benefits outweigh the risk; he will insure the essential clarity and separation of spruce will distinguish itself from my current cedar instrument. As you might expect, I am very eager to play both guitars!