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If i can do my share by scrounging and recuperating whatever wood from the trash, i will!

Paul, I loved the old Toyota Landcruisers as well, we got a new one in 1970-71 model I believe. Looked just like the one in the Photo but mine was Red.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Toyota has the new "FJ Cruiser". Have you seen it? with an MSRP of around 21k usd. Makes me start thinkin thoughts that the wife's not gonna like.

[QUOTE=charliewood] [QUOTE=CarltonM] It's good to be concerned, but don't feel too guilty. An individual builder might use the equivalent of one, or maybe two, trees in his lifetime. Luthiers did not destroy the South American rainforest. Besides, if a tree is going to be used, is there a better way to use it than making a musical instrument? Okay, maybe shelter; but the point is, both uses contribute greatly to the improvement of the human condition.[/QUOTE]

This is true - so OK do we leave it to the veneer industry to grow a conscience{-2sp?} Or the commercial timber industry? The furniture industry?[/QUOTE]
Of course not, Charlie. Please don't misunderstand me. As I wrote, being concerned is a good thing, and so is taking appropriate action; but since wood is like blood to luthiers, it's not unusual for small builders to feel a bit guilty when we hear about disappearing forests. That travesty, though, is not the fault of individual luthiers. Looks like it might be up to us, though, to administer a much-needed dope slap to those in charge!

Reality is all the wood used as "tonewood" world wide wouldn't make a fly spot on an elephant's back. There is minimal commercial wood market (time or thought)given to "tonewoods". Tonewood is such a minor market that the tonewood supply guys have to create the product interest from logging and milling companies and that interested us usually piqued with $$$$$ above furniture veneer use. Even top quality Sitka Spruce is flitched for veneer slicing. Over the past 20 years or so "instrument" grade wood has come to mean the very best of the best quality wood. It is still, of course buyer beware of false claims.

[QUOTE=RCoates] Toyota has the new "FJ Cruiser". Have you seen it? with an MSRP of around 21k usd. Makes me start thinkin thoughts that the wife's not gonna like.

[/QUOTE]

As I was pulling out of the body shop today (hail damage) there were 5, count 'em, 5 of the new FJs in the Toyota lot next door. You have no idea how hard it was to not stop the car "just to take a look".
My only beef is that they all have white roofs. Sort of looks like they are trying to make it look like a rag top or something.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Yeah, but does it have those cool flip-out air vents by your knees, or a ladder frame strong enough to bust an 10" phone pole and still keep running (don't ask)?

Maybe I miss that truck more than I thought...[/QUOTE]

I love those flip out air vents, the ones that when open driving down the highway, you catch the little bug parts in your legs when they hit the cover screen .

Wish my model had them.

Bet the new model has AC though

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] So what’s the deal with Environmentally Certified Wood. ...

Any one know the current status and who the drivers are?
[/QUOTE]
Hesh,

The FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) has become the umbrella organization within the USA, overseeing certification from other groups such as the Rainforest Alliance. These are US organizations (I think) with global programs.

Like pretty much everything environmental and humanitarian, these organizations are not receiving much (if any) US governmental support from the current administration. (Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings, but it is not just my opinion, it it the opinion of every major environmental and humanitarian organization in the US.) But I digress...

When I had a tiny lumber company ("Wise Wood Ecological Lumber Company") about 15-20 years ago, it seemed like the movement toward better forest stewardship, eco-conscious logging practices, and programs ensuring that local small timber producers and their communities got fair values for timber (i.e. socially responsible harvesting) was growing. Now, it seems to have lost some steam.

If you're interested, you can check out the info from the organizations I mentioned, plus a few others (like Green Cross in Canada.) You'll probably see that the certified lumber producers can provide you with material for your furniture factory, but not so much for lutherie.

I sent some Rainforest Alliance certified Smartwood (Machiche, Katalox, Granadillo, and a few other species) to LMI 15 years ago, to try to get them as excited about it as I was. I got dead air then, but I am happy to see that they did eventually become interested. The luthier suppliers will go through the extra effort and expense of procuring certified lumber, if we (collectively) ask them to, and if we are willing to pay a bit more.

Dennis


p.s. Tim, sorry to hijack your thread. I do appreciate that you are making a valiant effort to harvest this otherwise lost resource!

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis: As I understand it, the FSC is an international oversight/certificaiton body by and for the timber industry, made up of branches/local organizations in a lot of different contries (there's an FSC Netherlands, f'r example). Not really a nationalized organization as such.

But yes, I very much approve of their efforts, and I'd be willing to pay that little bit extra for certified woods.

Hi Todd, I agree that "Forestry management in developing countries is a pretty complex topic." It is easy to oversimplify the issues, and easy to have knee-jerk reactions. But, it is also easy to do nothing, say nothing, and simply support the status quo.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] ... pro and con positions from folks that use exotics from a variety of sources, and in quantities far greater than what we see in the luthiery community.
[/QUOTE]

I have to ask the rhetorical question, at what level of involvement do any of our individual activities become significant? William Cumpiano has written an article offering the opinion that luthiers collectively use very little wood, and his opinion is that it is insignificant. I disagree.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] ... stop using wood that does not meet your standards and apply what influence you have with suppliers and your elected representatives.

I assume that those of you advocating that FSC and other organizations be invited to feed at the public trough have already elected to stop chasing timber that does not meet these standards for sustainability, etc. To have done otherwise seems more than a bit indefensible.
[/QUOTE]
Isn't it a bit like the organic foods industry? If I see organic bananas at the grocery store, and can afford the (upfront) additional cost, I may elect to buy them. There may be other times that I feel I cannot afford the additional cost, and elect not to purchase them. On another day, there may not be any organic bananas offered for sale, so my chioce is between conventional (with pesticides) or none. When lumber suppliers offer some lumber that is certified as having been ecologically harvested, I have the opportunity to select it. Selecting it, even just occasionally for some projects, is better than never selecting it.

When I see or hear phrases like "feed at the public trough", I hear echoes of Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. Though no taxpayer wants money yanked from their wallet and wasted, there is a class of services that reach beyond municipal and state boundaries, and deserve national attention and funding. Among those services I would include true environmental protection and management services. Only a fool or a corrupt politician would suggest that industries, such as the timber industry, can police themselves.

(Todd, I'm *NOT* calling you a fool - it's a broad statement that includes myself.)

My comments are not meant to be inflammatory, or picking on a specific US polital party. It's meant to be consciousness raising. At this point in my life, I'm also not very good at head-in-the-sand ignorance any more. And, if i see someone getting the crap kicked out of them, I do step in, even if it means my nose will be bloodied. I choose to stand up for the agencies and individuals that are attempting to promote sustainable forest management, and the outright protection of some forests.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I haven't, not entirely, simply because there's almost nothing at all available that is FSC certified that's of sufficient quality to build with, or of the 'right' species.

Oganic Food and Forestry Preservation

I am not much of an expert on Forestry Preservation but have worked extensively in Food Safety and developing HACCP (Hazard Analysis of Critical Control Points) in processing of both Dairy and Beef. Myself and a team of Veterinarians involved in Food Animal Medicine, Producers, Pharmaceutical Companies, Feed Lots, Marketing Services and professors from Texas A&M Univerisity School of Veterinary Medicine developed a couple of programs that addressed issues surrounding production practices of food products entering the food supply. One thing is a given in both Food Production and Timber as well, financial incentives for "doing the right thing" have to be involved to some degree if any program from the "growers & processors" has any hope of succeeding. One note, we also looked extensively into the "organic" food production movement and found that although they have done away with the use of pesticides, from a quality and safety standpoint in both Dairy and Beef, it was less than desired. That really for the most part is the organic movement - use or non use of pesticides. I also might add that pesticides overall is not a bad thing and has benefits, the problem is in the application, handling and use that could cause cross-contaminations and problems.

If we hope to move an industry towards better processes, preservation and being more responsible, then incentives or rewards have to be passed through to those in compliance while penalties and possibly fines passed through for those out of control.

Just some Food for Thought

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Tim, your pictures inspired me to get out and lock em' up. So I took my little girl out for an adventure.

Looks like "clear" cutting is the same on both sides of the equator.

Here's some BC outback for ya'll









After seeing this, I stongly believe that we as luthiers have a very very small impact on the world supply of wood. Mind you this is mostly Pine, but you get the drift.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Dennis,

The best alternative for problem correction is self policing. Most government programs relating to enforcement at all levels maybe with the exception of Law has proven to be a waste of time and money with very few measurable results. Change is best accomplished in the free enterprise system that through policy based objectives from governments the private industry is moved to do the right thing. I am not one of those that believe business(s) of whatever size are the enemy or are totally absorbed with greed. Businesses are made up of decision makers just like you and I.

My 2 cents

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Well I would have say that the images look very similar although your clear felling looks a bit neater!

Tim

There are difficult decisions to make when it comes to this topic and everything else regarding wood buying...my story:

I needed to find some cocobolo for guitars that a Nicaraguan luthier is going to build for my site. I asked around and found a sawmill that does a lot of international exportation. They gave me a contact who was "the best guy for certified cocobolo". I arranged a purchase with him and got my wood for a good price. It's definitely legal wood...except that on the government forms it's listed as "Granadillo". And it's not. And I have now learned that everyone here does that because they can then list the selling price as way lower than it actually was on other government forms that collect a reforesting (supposedly, though nobody believes that's where it goes) tax.

And this is apparently the closest thing to legal cocobolo that can be found here....what do you do?! Of course I have no idea what the forestry practices used are, which might open a second can of worms.

Andrew Wright
Managua, Nicaragua

[QUOTE=harmonist34] It's definitely legal wood...except that on the government forms it's listed as "Granadillo". And it's not.
Andrew Wright
Managua, Nicaragua[/QUOTE]

Granadillo is a long established trade name for coco bolo (Dalbergia retusa) in Mexico. It might simply be used in Nicaragua (or other Central America countries) also. How do you mean "legal wood"? Non-poached, government licensed harvest?