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I bit the bullet and sold every ampbuilding book I had, about $600 worth,{of course I didnt get that} and I went and got myself a mandomaniac bending blanket system -
I wanted to support someone here with a fox bender purchase or blanket purchase, but after evaluating the other styles, this unit was just too appealing, with its ability to shut down isolated areas of the blanket while keeping the other areas cooking. Its super accurate temperature control.
Theres a thermocouple for quick interchange of different sizes of blankies, its just too cool.
I notice that when in use you dont really need to go to the trouble of building a fox style bender - but rather you can use a hinged mold system. It closes at the lower bout first, then slowly applies pressure, closing on to the wait and cutaway portion{if opted for}.
anybody know about the construction of these types of molds -or could someone point me to a photoessay?
I figure the extra money I spent on this system might end up being a savings in wood, appearantly breakage is reduced to a major degree.
Can someone tell me a bit more about these hinged molds though?
Cheers
Charliewood

Now you're tickling my curiosity Charlie, do you have any websites or web pics of the thang?

Serge

Hi Charliewood,

Tom ("mandomaniac") Durr is a member here, but not a sponsor here. I don't think anyone would mind discussing Tom's system here if there wasn't already a sponsor here offering heating blanket bending systems, but there is (John Hall.)

So, you might want to fire off the same question over at the Luthierforum. You'll find some examples of the type of mold that you're thinking of making, and a number of people (including me) that have that system.

(It's nothing secret, or taboo, and John Hall is a cool guy. But, there has been some discussion here lately about protecting OLF sponsors here in this forum.)

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis, you are free to share your own system that you use. That's not steping on anyones toes. Of course we would all love to support our sponsors, but from the sounds of it, Charlie's and your system is not the same as the one offered by John. Now if John carried this system, than maybe that would be stepping on his toes.

I say feel free to talk about what you do. If I'm wrong here, please, someone PM me and let me know.

John Hall rules, John Hall rules, John Hall rules, John Hall rules

Oh, and post pictures of your mold and bending form please. Rod True38847.9508217593

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I will post some pics of what it does for you Serge, quite frankly Im very excited about my purchase
heres a couple photos of it in action












Look at how tight that bend is, cant wait
I really think I got it because its a bit more idiot proof/wood preserving.
Cheers
Charliewood
charliewood38847.9599884259

Ok I posted these photos before I read the above statement that mabye we shouldnt discuss this here cause Tom isnt a sponsor - SO does this mean we are only going to discuss technology that is showcased by the sponsors here? Because if it is Id like to know right now.
Cheers
Charlie
Mabye I should keep product discussion forum specific, its its going to cause an upheaval.
I saw your writing on the mando system and your testominy pushed me over the edge to buy.
But
Just because another product exists that rivals a sponsors product - does that mean there should be no discussion of it at OLF? Is that a true exchange of information, that will keep people here on the cutting edge of luthierie?
PS - I do plan to drop a substantial amount of money with Tom as I have a series of body molds, plans, and other things in mind to buy from him. So its not like I am ripping down John Halls products or anything, or even trying to hype this one, just excited about the prospect of workinng with this thing and wondered if anyone had already.
Plus I have already spent about $7-$900 with OLF sponsors, its just that in this instance I decided to go another route. charliewood38847.9660069444

Charlie, as Rod said, feel free to share pics of any of the tools you buy or jigs that you make, The OLF will always be a place to share pics and free information and that my friend is one cool way of bending wood, i really like your set up my friend!

Congats bud!

YF Serge

No one has ever (in my memory) said that you can't share a method or tool that you use, even if it comes from someone other than a sponsor.

People tell us that they are working on a Martin kit all the time, there's no problem with that. Or have developed a jig based on someone elses, how many different versions of the Harry Fleishman/Don Williams binding jig are there out there. And that is sold by one of our sponsors.

Just because they sell them, dosn't mean we have to buy them. Some people like to make jigs, some prefer to buy them, some like a different jig all together. Tooling is all good in my opinion.

Don't steal an idea than market it, that's just wrong (And I'm not saying your doing that Charlie, cause your not).

We all get ideas from eachother and improve on them or change them for the good of All luthiers. That's the greatest thing with this craft. It's soooo open.

We don't need to walk on eggshells when we talk about product. At least I don't think we do, and we shouldn't have to.

The real issue is that there have been a few topics that have swung to far to one side, of course the tendancy is to swing all the way to the other side. Lets just get into balance (plumb) and keep on asking questions, sharing methods, information, success', failures etc.

I don't think a tool needs to be a fine line folks.

That's my two bits.

Now, that is one hefty looking bending form there Charlie, nice tight cutaway. Cool.Rod True38848.0352662037

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=DennisLeahy]I don't think anyone would mind discussing Tom's system here if there wasn't already a sponsor here offering heating blanket bending systems, but there is (John Hall.)
[/QUOTE]

Share away... we are all here to learn....

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Really well said Rod, i was just wondering about starting a thread about this because of the latest developments that make us all walk on insecurity road.

WE DO NOT NEED TO DIVIDE, LET'S REGROUP!

Charlie has a way of expressing himself that is unique and is our brother, i like the sensibility of this guy even though he'd like to show US that he's a tough cookie! Like many of us, he is enthusiastic, loves to share because he receives a lot from here and i can relate, i felt the same way when i saw all the free info here and thought i didn't have much to offer in return to all of you, i would then try to make you all laugh and unfortunately hurt some of you without meaning any harm to anyone, sometimes by bad translation on my part and sometimes assuming that my counterpart was attacking me. My point is this: We do not need no freaking insecurity in our ranks, we need unity more than ever beforeand i have a great feeling that our friend Charlie is gonna be helping a lot of us soon.

Charlie, you got a PM buddy and you can count on my support!

Serge

[QUOTE=charliewood] Ok I posted these photos before I read the above statement that mabye we shouldnt discuss this here cause Tom isnt a sponsor - SO does this mean we are only going to discuss technology that is showcased by the sponsors here? Because if it is Id like to know right now.
Cheers
Charlie
Mabye I should keep product discussion forum specific, its its going to cause an upheaval.
I saw your writing on the mando system and your testominy pushed me over the edge to buy.
But
Just because another product exists that rivals a sponsors product - does that mean there should be no discussion of it at OLF? Is that a true exchange of information, that will keep people here on the cutting edge of luthierie?
PS - I do plan to drop a substantial amount of money with Tom as I have a series of body molds, plans, and other things in mind to buy from him. So its not like I am ripping down John Halls products or anything, or even trying to hype this one, just excited about the prospect of workinng with this thing and wondered if anyone had already.
Plus I have already spent about $7-$900 with OLF sponsors, its just that in this instance I decided to go another route. [/QUOTE]

Wow... what a post....

Ok... then let me set the record straight..... for you and everyone one else.

You can post anything you like regarding guitar building with respect to your methods, suppliers you have found and like (and dislike, but I would caution everyone about keeping this strictly to the facts), ideas, etc.

The PROBLEM comes in when unauthorized sellers try to poach in our back yard. I am not going to shine too bright of a light on the specific instances of this but trust me it happens. This is unfair to our sponsors and undermines our community.

As builders and members you really don't need to be concerned over such things. It is great that we all think of the sponsors first, but we can't stifle our conversations and learning to exclusively serve these interests.

We need to remember that the relationship between sponsors and members is symbiotic.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Charlie

I had never seen one of these before, it certainly seems to work well judging by the bend you have on your cutaway there.

How does it shutdown specific areas of the blanket ? Is the blanket segmented in some way ?

This system runs a "J" type thermocoupling built into the blanket wired to a digital heat controller, you set the desired heat on the controller, set the timer and let her rip.

Cheers

Kim

Thanks Kim

So, basically, it's much like the system described in the latest issue of 'Guitarmaker'? In terms of control, anyway...

Charliewood. I have been using Tom's blanket setup for over a year now along with John Hall's bending machine. It works great. In fact John Hall has mentioned the posability of carrying a similar blanket. One thing I'm not sure of is the controlling of differant areas of the blanket. Mine doesn't . It just recycles and holds the whole blanket at the set temp. Has Tom has come up with a differant blanket?

Mattea it is very similar to that setup.

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Trying to be sensitive to the fine line between showing excitement for something and stepping on a sponsor's toes, I would like to have heard from John Hall on this. I love sharing information, I just know I'm in someone else's sandbox, and want to make sure I play by their rules.

Tom "mandomaniac" Durr's system is different than Johns, and it is more expensive. Maybe that takes away the head-to-head competition.

Tom's system uses a silicone heating blanket with an embedded thermocouple. The embedded thermocouple "reads" the current temperature of the blanket from within the blanket itself. I can see where a surface thermometer could read properly, or (if improperly placed, for example) could read incorrectly. Maybe a better way to say that is that a separate thermometer will read correctly, but just exactly what is it reading?

In Tom's system, the thermocouple is connected to either a digital or analog temperature controller. You set the target temperature, the controller completes the circuit so that the blanket receives voltage. [ there is a proprietary step in there I will not divulge ] The temperature controller is constantly reading the temperature at the blanket's thermocouple, and will shut off the voltage when the target temperature is reached. In the process of bending one side, the blanket may be actually "energized" 20 times, to maintain the target temperature. (I know that because I connected up some idiot lights to my system, so I could see when each piece of the system was receiving voltage.) A timer, digital or analog (as in the photos above), is used to control the overall bending process's time. Gee, Kim (larkim) sure is more succinct than I am!

Once your system is operational, you can (if desired) purchase additional heating blankets, sized for specific tasks. For example a very small blanket for removing bridges, or a size just for removing fingerboards, as well as the possibility to add blankets for specific instrument sizes (mandolin sides, guitar sides, cello sides, etc.)

As far as I know, there is no "zone control" in any of the blankets, and I hope I didn't misstate something to Charliewood in another forum.

Tens of thousands of sides have been bent on a hot pipe. Thousands of sides have been bent with heating blankets using things like router speed controls (heavy-duty rheostats) to control the blanket. Those systems work, and if someone wants to get into bending with a silicone blanket for the least amount of cash outlay, you should contact John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars. I am sure you will be extremely happy with his system. For me, I wanted even more control, especially over the specific temperature, so I went with Tom's system.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Ok guys, Im not trying to freak out on anyone - its seems to me like lately....
Ive openend my mouth one too many times here, recieved a personal aside saying "mabye you shouldnt", or have felt like I had put my foot in my mouth once again, all deserved............. no doubt!
But yes I did feel like I was walking on eggshells a bit.
and when what was suggested not to speak of a rival product, I was like
.....OK, whats what? what can I do, what cant I do here?

I can see now that Dennis was just trying to steer me somewhere, where he happens to know alot of people use this system..........discreetly, in order to help me out - I was on the defensive. Sorry Dennis.
But when it was suggested that a product mabye shouldnt be discussed, because a sponsor carried a rival product. That just didnt make sense to me, seeing as we are all trying to better ourselves as artisans.

I am into supporting sponsors here, and I do, but I am not always going to buy here, Im not in a position to, mabye when I am actally earning a living at this, instead of selling everything I own to pursue this ambition, then I will be in a position to do that, or mabye even become a sponsor myself. who knows.

About the individual portions of the blanket shutting down - I may have misunderstood there, ooops.
But all in all its digitally controlled now, instead of the analog timer, and controls heat to an amazing degree. Makes nice tight bends and what was most important to me........breaks less wood than the bulb system. Which is all pretty cool by me.
Cheers
Charlie
PS what I really wanted to know was if anyone had any info about the hinged form, although it seems pretty straight forward, I just wondered if anyone here had built one, had pics etc.

I really don't see the point... I think we are discussing apples and oranges. Different technologies that accomplish the same thing are completely legit to discuss. Again, the only real "problem" is when people post showcasing thier wares who are not advertisers, or people who work behind the scenes to sell their stuff to our membership.

Other than that everything is legit.

Now.... about this system. Do you set the different areas of the blanket @ different temperatures? How smooth is the final product? Any bumps or humps? The idea looks intriguing.

The last ASIA journal had a control unit you could build to control the blanket temp to with in +/- 4 degrees, but this seems like an interesting idea.

BTW, who is selling this system?
Brock Poling38848.6216666667

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Charlie

As brock said who is one of the people in charge of the forum, its no problem to discuss alternate products at all. The sponsors to the best of my knowledge have never had an issue with this, in fact I've seen threads where John of bluescreek listed several of his competitors in order to be even handed in a reply to a thread.

Just making it clear that as far as I see it you did nothing wrong, and you are a valued member here, I personally have found many of your post interesting, and you are clearly approaching it all with great research and thought.

I wasn't trying to trip you up with my question about the isolation, just trying to understand your new system.

On the molds I'm afraid I don't know of any resources with pics and how to instruction. looks simple enough the key bits I see, is you have to ensure you leave a gap at the hinges to cope with different side thicknesses. The other thing I'm wondering is how do you start the bend when your side is straight ?

Looks like you would almost have to balance the two end parts up and then clamp in the waist ?

Looks like that could be a bit awkeward ?

But maybe I've just not graped how it works, Charlie let me assure you I am just interested to learn about this system, not trying to critise it.

Well it appears that I may have been in error about the individual portions of the blanket being able to regulate thier temps.
But there is an incredible accuracy in the preset temperature, an abilty top incorporate many blanket into one system and I got everything I needed in one shot. The best explanation of it I found, was Mr Dennis Leahy
above who quoted eslewhere:


Whereas I can see the possibility of watching a clock, and pulling the plug from the outlet after the total time has elapsed (saving you the cost of a timer), may I recommend that you get the temperature controller as part of the basic system?

The temperature controller, plus the embedded thermocouple in the silicone heating blanket, are what sets Tom's (mandomaniac) system apart. The thermocouple embedded within the blanket will give you a true reading of the temperature of the blanket. The temperature controller works with the thermocouple by constantly reading the temperature of the blanket, and turning on or off the proper voltage going to the blanket.

For example, when you're bending, let's say that you select 295°F as your temperature. The temperature controller senses the temperature of the blanket, and applies voltage until it hits your target temperature. Then the voltage is shut off (by the temperature controller.) It may be a few seconds later, or a minute later when the controller senses that the temperature has dropped, and again sends voltage to the blanket. That might happen 20 times over the course of bending one side, all automatically. You can be confident that your side really did hit 295°, and that (plus or minus a few degrees) temperature was maintained for you automatically over the course of the bending process. It is much more consistent and predictable than using a rheostat (router controller) to constantly send some amount of voltage to the blanket.

So, if you find out by reading or by experimentation that Zebrawood bends well at 285°, but is subject to burning when it hits 300°, then you'll have the ability to repeat your success in future bends of Zebrawood."
End Quote

I realise bending is really vital part of the process, and alot of purists believe that blanket detract from the whole art of luthierie.
But honestly, it would make me cry to break a set of 5A curly koa sides beyond repair! Even a regular set of plain maple would sadden me greatly, as our goal is to expand the lifespan of this object in death, and potentially allowing them to bring great happiness to living creatures. Except when I play.
scrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechjk
Cheers
Charliewood
PS Brock - Tom "mandomaniac" Durr is selling these. Someone actually suggested to me on this forum to check him out - I searched forever and couldnt find him, then came across a post of his selling theze elsewhere and quite by accident.charliewood38848.8839814815

Cool... thanks for the info.

If you are into a DIY system the latest Guitarmaker has an article in there about how to make a control unit that will do this too.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

As for bending wood, I think John Mayes has a list somewhere of suggested temperatures for different woods.

John, you still have that. Was that on the 13th fret somewhere?

Yes the 13th Fret. Here it is, a very good article. Thanks John.

Now, to go and package your mahogany Charlie.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Thanks for that Rod. Oh, and of course you to John

Kim

Well what ya know , gee another bending machine . This isn't new technology but has been around a while. Infact some of the earlier machines used this same technology.
    The unit is descreet and bends to the one mold , and Martin has some of these but don't use them anymore. They work and if you want to use them go for it. I love to see new or old stuff.
   Please don't think it will offend me as information not shared is a secret. Knowlege shared is education.
    Thanks for all the kind thoughts and praise. As a luthier I use this stuff to.
John Hall
PS have fun and keep the strings on the outside of the box.