Official Luthiers Forum!

Looking for advice - what has been your favorite top wood for flamenco guitars, and have you built them primarily to
classical specs or with the really low action in a real flamenco?

If you build them to classical specs for action instead of flamenco specs, would that affect your choice of top wood.

I have a commission from a classical player, who doesn't want the action to be particularly low; i.e., he still wants to be able to play it like a classical guitar. I have half a mind to just build the classical guitar that I'm set up to build anyway, just using cypress instead of Rosewood, and a thinner top.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I am planning on building a flamenco down the line. I have some very nice
cypress for the backs and sides, but I was planning on a either a German/Ital
spruce top or maybe cedar. Considering that when I built my Nylon
classical, I used a spruce top, I am leaning on using cedar for the top.

Action wise, I was going to build it like my classical

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Andy - I'm not sure what to make of this action thing. Is a flamenco guitar with classical action just a white classical guitar?

In my case, I think what happened is that my friend, after asking about building a flamenco, was a little dismayed when I told him what the action "should" be like, and balked. I guess I'm wondering how to go about retaining the fast attack of the flamenco once a more classical geometry is chosen. Or can you? Is the flamenco-ness in the weight? The more parallel fans? (Barbero's certainly don't have more parallel fans) The action? My extreme lack of experience is not helping me here.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I would see if any experts out there chime in

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

poke. Any flamenco experts?

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Jim, I have a Classical on the bench right now and I tell you for either one, call Ed over at AC Woods one of our sponsors, I got in some really nice tight grained, creamy white colored, exceptional Engleman Spruce. The grain lines in the sets I received were virtually invisible, nicest I have seen and priced really well.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Well, it just so happens that this flamenco guitar will have Alaska Yellow Cedar B&S from Ed, which I've had on a shelf for over a year.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I build about 7 Classical to every 3 flamenco.

A few things...

What today is considered a flamenco has evolved as a result of the playing style and virtuosity of players such as Sabicas, Paco De Lucia, Manitas De Plata and others.

In the time of Torres there was no difference between a rosewood guitar and a cypress guitar, just the cost and quality of the materials with Cypress being a "weed tree" in the Spanish countryside.

Only in this century has the flamenco been seen as the "blanca" (Cypress) and negra (Rosewood). You can build a great classical of Cypress as well as building an authentic flamenco of Rosewood. In fact some of Torres best sounding guitars have been made of Cypress, made during a time in Torres career where he was in dire poverty and could not afford maple or rosewood.

Having said that, the flamenco sound is only partially a choice of action...at different times the fashion has been very low action with buzzing on all strings and at other times every wants a classical sounding guitar with higher action.

The more important aspect of what makes a flamenco is the attack. A Flamenco needs to be able to be hear above singing, clapping, foot stomping and alot of other noise so the sound you want is bright highs with alot of attack up front but then a rapid drop off in the sound as a traditional classical sound will resonate longer and muddy the sound of the explosive "rasgueado" strumming and solo runs.

The way to get closer to that sharp punch is to make the top thinner but also if you are fan bracing to eliminate the bottom (near the tail) cross lateral braces. This will help to speed up the decay of sound that would otherwise add muddy overtones.

Andy...I dont think I would use Cedar for the top...it does not in general have the brightness that is desirable for a flamenco...unless the cedar you are thinking about is Alaskan Yellow Cedar for a top (which is not really a cedar or cypress). In general you want the top thin and when WRC is thinned it gets too mushy for a flamenco whereas German or Italian Spruce is much stiffer and can be thinned more.

If you are looking for an alternative wood for the top, try Port Orford Cedar (which isnt a cedar either)...it has a nice white look at is stiffer than WRC. Les Stansell has made some very nice flamencos with POC and Myrtle that look and sound great.

Flamenco is a combination of building very light, generally lower action (unless for a classical builder) and only then the choice of what the back and sides will be.

There is something really electric and seductive about really good Flamenco music. Builders such as Eugene Clark and Lester DeVoe have become so enamoured by Flamenco that they have shifted to almost exclusively flamenco.

For flamenco the combination I usually build with is either Alaskan Yellow Cedar or Monterey Cypress sides and back (more consistent quality and less expensive than Spanish Cypress) with an Italian spruce top. I havent tried it yet but I have a feeling that Shane's Lutz spruce would make a great looking and sounding top for a flamenco.

It may seem silly but when I am building a run of flamenco's the music I listen to in the shop is nothing but flamenco. The idea I am going for is that in Spain they are immersed in the music and that affects at a subconscious level what they are hearing when they build a flamenco so I also try to get inside the flamenco experience although I can not say definitely if it helps my building of flamenco's.

What is does have an effect on is when I play flamenco. It is not a timid music and neither is it the sloppy playing that some expect of flamenco...it is music that is so passionate that when it is quiet it is a whisper and when it is forceful is a roar...if you do not listen to flamenco you will not be able to play flamenco. OF course the same can be said of "metal head banger: music...if you are not thrashing, you are not playing :)

Let me say Cancun!...those who know...know! Flamencoman38867.9230439815

Richard Brune has some interesting things to say about
flamenco build, setup, and strings in 'American Lutherie',
issue 61, pp 64-65. Carey

Shawn - Thanks for the info. It echoes what I think I know, from word of mouth, but until you've done it yourself a few times, you just don't really know, do you? I'd guess that WRC is not the wood of choice - that's what I'd be using if I wanted a mellower sound in a classical or SS. I have sitka around, and engleman, and some carpathian, and was hoping to use something on hand, but that wouldn't be serving WAS in proper style, would it? Maybe I'll give Shane a ping.

Carey - Thanks for the Brune ref, I'll give it a look.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=Shawn] What is does have an effect on is when I play flamenco. It is not a timid music and neither is it the sloppy playing that some expect of flamenco...it is music that is so passionate that when it is quiet it is a whisper and when it is forceful is a roar...if you do not listen to flamenco you will not be able to play flamenco. OF course the same can be said of "metal head banger: music...if you are not thrashing, you are not playing :)

[/QUOTE]

Shawn, i agree totally, i once heard a Flamenco player that i can't remember the name, was too young but Manitas de Plata sounds familiar as a name, and what i had heard then was the greatest talent i had ever heard on a guitar in terms of speed(execution) and acuracy of each note, it was just mind blowing, some rockers would have just fell down their pedastal if the kids would have listened to him with my young but interested ears at the time!

Serge

[QUOTE=Carey] Richard Brune has some interesting things to say about
flamenco build, setup, and strings in 'American Lutherie',
issue 61, pp 64-65. Carey[/QUOTE]

I was just at Marshall and Richards F.P. class in March. Richard is also an avid player of Flamenco. He treated us to a few songs and man he realy tore it up! I have seen other Flamenco players and they all seem to have great chops...sort of a pre-requisite. I highly recommend Marshall's class by the way. It is much more than just F.P. especially all those Hausers and Torres guitars laying around!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"