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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:50 am 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Do the full time luthiers here ever miss human contact that one might get in another profession? I actually hate human contact but hide it well......    Seriously though I am wondering if it just gets to lonely at times with a profession this labor intensive and very few clients per hour so to speak.[/QUOTE]

Hey, for me that's a good thing    But I thought that's what the OLF was for, no?

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Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:06 am 
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I have heard of builders with many year waiting list that take a small deposit for a spot on the list,then five or ten years later when it is your turn the actual price is determined. (based on rate of inflation?)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:17 am 
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For me, in a perfect world, I would like to continue to hone my skills and designs, build better and better guitars over the next decade or so, and then if all the stars line up, retire in my mid 50's and do this as a supplement to my retirement income.
I will have 30 years in where I currently work when I turn 49.
Now, with 2 kids, 5 & 8, all bets are off.   

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:23 am 
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Ahemmm....Luthiers Showcase....Burp....


[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=John Mayes] Experience is very good, but there is also a large degree of luck. [/QUOTE]

Certainly true. However I think there is an opportunity to manufacture a little luck.

It strikes me that many solo builders could use a good dose of marketing strategy, advertising, and sales help. I think this would go a LONG LONG LONG way toward helping to keep the orders flowing and build the reputation so prices could continue and upward climb. Most engage in what I call "pot shot marketing".

(This is not a critisism -- I think of it more as an unrealized opportunity, and it certainly is not intended for you John... I am just piggy backing on your comment about luck.)

If you look at some of the builders out there that have "made it" you will find a lot of them have put a substantial amount of brainpower and investment into developing their awareness and honing their marketing skills.

That seems to me to be as critical as having a great product. Having a good product simply isn't good enough. It is easy to get lost in the crowd.

I know a few guys will tell you that they have never really done any marketing to speak of (i.e. Kevin) but this is a risky strategy, and Kevin starting doing this before there were so many people with a shingle out. I don't think that will work as well for newer builders just starting out.

My take on the question of "can you make money at this" is sure.... if you can bottle water and sell it, you can make money at just about anything you set your mind to, but the reality is it will take a lot of work, dedication, and sacrifice before that happens.

I applaud guys with the passion and drive to push through the lean years in hopes of reaching the day when they can support themselves doing this.



[/QUOTE]

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:25 am 
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Just want to clear up my title...I wasn't asking if luthiers make money...the second part of the title was supposed to read "...This one does!!" I saw in the past a lot of folks asked that question. Sometimes my comp acts up and this time it did and messed up my title


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:57 am 
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garrison is also gnawing off its own legs with their line of china built active braced top only guitars - the rest is all wood braced, kerfed etd, and they sell for half what it costs him to make in Nfld, and htey sound better than the real ones (the all ative plastic brace) to me !!!!

One big issue I have with them is for 1000 plus you get NO purf line at all anywhere top side or back, just a single black binding - he hasnt figured out a way to make those happen. They have no true upper end models, just EI rw.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:31 am 
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The catch 22 there Brock is probably to do the things you elude to it
takes money. And if the luthier in question is already broke then your
ideas won't help.... or maybe you have a load of ideas that are 100% and
will help make us all superstars...if so please do share :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:38 am 
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Love your avatar Tony!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:45 am 
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Thanks Serge .... and when I win the lotto, I plan to keep making guitars until that money runs out too !!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:12 am 
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How do you make 1 million dollars making guitars?
Invest 2 million. sorry I couldn't resist.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:16 pm 
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Years ago here in Ontario Canada we had a New Democratic Party (labour) leading the province - the running joke was - How do you run a successful small business here - start with a large one !!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:59 pm 
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[QUOTE=John Mayes] The catch 22 there Brock is probably to do the things you elude to it
takes money. And if the luthier in question is already broke then your
ideas won't help.... or maybe you have a load of ideas that are 100% and
will help make us all superstars...if so please do share :)[/QUOTE]

I suppose it takes "some" money, but I see luthiers spending money on marketing, that doesn't seem to be the issue so much as it is most (seem to) lack a cohesive plan. And again.... I am not saying this as critisism as much as I am pointing out where unrealized opportunities lie.

I think first and foremost builders should know two things forward, backward and upside down. 1) Who is your client (hint: "guitar players" isn't the right answer.) Specifically who are you selling to? This may seem like such a basic question that it is elemental, but it really helps clarify who you should be talking to. If someone isn't your customer they might as well be buying cheeseburgers as far as you are concerned.

You can plant a stake in the ground and claim a space for your own instantly. One of our members (sorry I forgot who) is marketing his instruments as "worship guitars". I think this is a good branding move. The market is sufficiently large to sustain a luthier, there seems to be decent demand, and it should be relatively easy to make a name for yourself as catering to that market. Do his guitars sound any better in a worship setting than by a camp fire... nope. I am sure the "hook" has more to do with the builders personal passions and services he offers to the market than his proficiency as a builder. I think this is smart.

The same could be said for vertial or horizontal markets. We have several builders at the OLF specializing in bluegrass instruments, of course there are the vintage repro guys, etc. I think all of this is very helpful in helping boost sales. There are lots of directions that branding can take you, it is really just a matter of figuring out what fits with you, what market is big enough to sustain you, and where your talents lie.

It is much easier to get "known for something" when that "something" is definable.

2) Builders need to be able to articulate the benefit / value of owning one of their instruments. What value do you UNIQUELY offer potential clients? This is a tough one and requires a bit of gut checking. There are lots of well made guitars that sound great with the same love and attention that is put into them as yours... but what makes yours unique? This is really hard, but I think the exercise is worthwhile and will help you instill this "value" in the mind of potential customers.

This doens't mean you have to say "my guitars are better than Brock's because he is a bozo and I am not." It might be more of a "as far as I know I am the only builder focusing on building a modern finger picking guitar for people with smaller hands. In addition to several prominent male players I build a lot of guitars for women and younger players."


This probably means that you will occassionally walk away from orders... and that is really hard. Especially when you are scratching to make a living, but defining and sticking to a focused set of goals is the path to success for almost every famous brand (big or small).

So.... I think these are items 1 and 2 on the list and they really don't cost any money (per se), but they help focus where the money will be spent.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:14 pm 
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Unlike the branding which tends to be a little "soft" for some tastes (but I still think it is the most important thing to consider in any marketing). Here are a few ideas on tactics.

Going to a show? Hand out invitation cards to players who look interested but are overwhelmed by the masses to a VIP reception in a nearby hotel suite that evening. This has some added expense but not much and it will give people a much better opportunity to get familar with you and your guitars.

Put a clause in your contracts that read something like this "I stand behind my work 100% and will fully refund your money for any reason whatsoever within 72 hours of receipt of your guitar, however, if you decide to keep the guitar I ask that you take the initiative to call or write three of your guitar playing friends and tell them about the guitar I built for you and your satisfaction." (Some won't do it, but if you thrill your customers they will be glad to do it).

Produce a CD of great musicians playing your guitars. (John Mayes has an excellent example). This can also help drive home the point of brand. Select music that fits your target audience.

DON'T run ads online, in AG, or anywhere else that is nothing more than a picture of your guitar and your logo. This is pretty worthless. At least create a tag line to communicate your core benefit. (Personally, I think this kind of advertising should be done only after a lot of other stuff. It is too expensive and delivers little bang for the buck on small marketing budgets.)

If the big trade mags won't pick you up because you are not an advertiser (personally I find this pretty hard to believe, but I will take your word for it). Find some smaller pubs, or ones not related to guitars. Return to the idea of the worship guitar builder. Getting an article written in magazines aimed at church administrators and priests / pastors should be pretty easy given the unique nature of the story. I think there are PR opportunities everywhere. And NOTHING delivers results like PR.

Develop an online newsletter. Maybe not to sell your work, but give pointers on the proper care and feeding of acoustic guitars. Show players how to change their strings, show them how to properly humidify the instrument in the winter, occassionally send them pics of your newest work, just keep in touch.

Develop wall paper that anyone visiting your site can download and install on their computer. It keeps your brand in front of them day in and day out.

Same thing, but with a screen saver.

See if Porter Cable or some other big company would have an interest in profiling you for an ad? Agencies do this kind of thing. Fish around, I bet you would be surprised. Then you get someone else to pay for your marketing.

If you have retail presence sponsor an event a couple of times a year where you invite players to visit the store to hear _____________ play, hear your instruments and meet you.

I have about 10,000 more ideas like this. Most don't cost much money... or if they do, they don't cost much MORE money than what you are already spending.

Again, none of this is meant as critisism. I see all of it as unrealized opportunities that are just ripe for the picking.

Brock Poling38873.9278356481

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:05 pm 
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A lot of good points and sage wisdom being offered on this thread. I'm soaking 'em up.

As most of you folks probably know, I specialize in classicals. Now, what many of you may not know is there are no major manufacturers of high-end classicals, with the possible exception of Cordoba. I suspect that most of the largest builders, such as Ramirez, probably produce fewer guitars in a year than companies like Martin build in a month.

Thus, within the world of classicals, almost all your well-known builders are small shops, often just a single guy cranking out a couple dozen guitars a year. Almost by definition, a high-end classical is a custom, handcrafted guitar.

You guys who build steel strings, on the other hand, are not only having to compete with all the other custom steel string builders, but you're having to compete with the big factories, all of whom sell models that command hefty price tags.

So it just stands to reason that a very important component to finding a way to wedge oneself into the market is to develop a reputation. Easier said than done, though, right? Gotta admit, Brock has some excellent ideas on ways to get yourself noticed. They'll help. But establishing a reputation is key.

So how does one go about establishing a reputation? I imagine there are quite a few different ways. I have decided on a way that has been proven to work: sell certain instruments at a deep discount, even maybe give a couple away, if it means they'll be put in the hands of a player who can give me, the builder, the exposure (and reputation) I need.

Case in point: I'm finishing up on a highly customized 10-string classical for a very talented player whom I believe is going places. I offered to build him a guitar for about half what I would otherwise charge for a project such as his, and he agreed. I have confidence that this guitar will get noticed, and I know the player will help promote my guitars.

Another example: During last year's 10-string guitar festival, I struck up a friendly acquaintance with Janet Marlow, who sponsored the festival, and is a world-renowned 10-string player. Her passion is the 10-string. She wants more classical players to try it, but people are put off by the very high entry price of a new 10-string (typically $5k and WAY up from there). Used ones don't come on the market all the frequently, and when they do, they often command high prices as well.

Janet initially contracted with an archtop builder to build an entry level guitar that she would endorse. The builder bought boxes without necks from a medium-range Spanish classical factory, and fabricated his own necks and bridges for the guitars. They were entry models, yes, but they were clunky. After only a few guitars, he abandoned the project because his wife was in poor health and he didn't have the extra time any longer to devote to Janet's vision of a reasonably priced, entry-level 10-string.

So, here I am at the festival -- the only 10-string builder who made it to the event, and I brought along the first 10-string I built. It got played a lot by the folks there, and I don't mind admitting that it compared very favorably with instruments that sold in the many thousands of dollars.

I'm seeing a huge possibility here. So I tell Janet that we should talk. That I have a few ideas about being able to build an entry level 10-string, and I think we could price it low enough so that sticker shock wouldn't be an issue.

A few months later, after I built and sent Janet a prototype for her perusal, she and I signed a contract for the Janet Marlow Entry model. It's a bare-bones guitar appearance-wise, but in every other way it is handmade. Plus I've standardized on the woods, not offering any options except the installation of a pickup for an additional charge. Four of the seven 10-strings I now have on order are JMEs.

Okay, so I was in the right place at the right time, but the point is, I had enough sense to make a pitch to Janet when I learned of her "predicament," and it appears to be working out for both of our mutual benefits. I'm getting orders, and she's getting her desire fulfilled for a well-made entry level 10-string.

Finally -- when I first set out to build classicals, I was thinking in terms of what is pretty much a standard price point for many builders -- guitars in the $3k range, when built with Euro spruce tops and EIR back/sides. But as I was going through the process of improving my technique, I also began to realize that I would have little chance of actually making many sales with my guitars priced at the same level as lots of other builders who have reputations. Not only that, many classical builders have pedigrees. "Oh, luthier so-and-so studied under this or that master luthier," etc. Joshua French, a member here, is a great example. He studied under Romanillos, for pete's sake!

So, after a lot of soul searching in terms of both my goals and abilities, I realized I should price my guitars based on my abilities, and not according to any false hopes of what I think they should sell for. I am not a master luthier -- far, far from it. I describe myself as an experienced novice, with fewer than 20 builds under my belt. So what is an experienced novice's hourly rate worth? I decided, arbitrarily, on $15/hr. Then I made a few basic assumptions based on past builds as to how many hours it would take to complete a guitar, multiplied that by 15, then added the costs of materials and a hardshell case to that amount, then rounded it up to an even number.

What I realized was I could build and offer guitars for a much lower price than other custom classical builders. In fact, I can offer my guitars at prices comparable to some of the better Paracho, Mexico builders (most notably Fransico Navarro, who builds very nice guitars). This has been the foot in the door for me. The old "sell the same thing for less" strategy at work. In so doing, I hope to carve out for myself a small piece of the pie. I have decided that once my waiting list reaches one year, I will probably increase my prices. I think that's only fair, since I have to pay more for everything I buy as time goes on. But I want to hit that one-year-waiting-list target before I do it.

Whoops. Sorry for the length of this post. Didn't mean to get so carried away.

Best,

MichaelMichael McBroom38874.0190972222

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:24 pm 
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Thanks for these very informative and educational posts guys!

SergeSerge Poirier38874.0171990741


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:59 pm 
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Brock

Thanks for taking the trouble to post your two posts, they are really helpful.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:54 am 
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Hmm, I finally read the article at the top of the thread...

Projected sales of around 7 million. projected output of 25,000 guitars...

That's $280/guitar in income.

37 employees, once benefits, compensation and wages are factored in will eat at least 2 million, eating $80 off each guitar, leaving $200 guitar.

A factory doesn't come cheap, nor will the property taxes, heating(Newfoundland is Not a warm climate <bg>), electric, and machinery maintenance. A

Add materials costs. Shipping. Warranty work.

What say Dave? Can it work?


Another number that is scary is 25,000 guitars and 37 employees. Some of these HAVE to be in shipping, and in the offices, sales, accounting, warranty repairs, and r&d, etc... Let's say 10. That leaves 26 to build 25,000 guitars. That means 961 guitars per employee per year. Ouch! That is 2.03 man-hours per guitar. Double ouch.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:56 am 
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Thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:41 am 
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25000 guitars in a year, about 200 working days a year, that means 125 guitars a day - how long to string each one ??, say 5 minutes - in a 7.5 hour shift, you can only do 90, and thats going like a machine - the person(s) doing this job will be brain dead in about a week !!!! His numbers have to be bogus, its not possible, even with the bracing/kerfing/binding being pumped out in 45 seconds !!!

A friend visited Larrivee's Calif factory last summer - in one room, there were 4 ladies, sitting in easy chairs sanding necks - they only do 4 each per day, sand two hours each neck. Nice job.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:59 am 
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I wouldn't mind the $10- $12/ hour if i just knew and was certain that my future builds were worthy because this is what i dream of doing more than anything else and Mario for one can easily certify what i'm saying, he saw first hand how bitten and excited i was last year and how i'm still like that today! This is more a matter of loving what you do and be realistic about your costs to which i agree with Mario and Dave Bland, we just can't avoid reality of increasing costs of fuel and other derived expenses that are a challenging burden on the modern luthier.


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[QUOTE=Rod True] So is it about the money? I hope not. There has to be more. [/QUOTE]

If you're talking about making a living at it, then it should be all about the money, from the respect that if you're providing for your family and hopefully your future, you must make sure you are not short-changing yourself or them.

There are other concerns besides making enough to live on. There's health and life insurance, accidental death and dismemberment insurance (AD&D), and the big one - Retirement. When we make career decisions, we have to weigh all of that, or we risk the future living for the present.

You can't bank on not retiring and earning your living at lutherie during those years instead. You don't know what the future holds, and you'd better plan for all eventualities. What if you end up with severe arthritis in your hands? How are you going to build guitars? What if you end up with respiratory problems?

Don't sacrifice the future...we don't know where Social Security is going, nor Medicare or Medicaide in the US, so we had better plan to be self-reliant in that day.
Heavy stuff I know, but you have to think about it.

Oh one more biggie......DEBT. Lose it. Don't take on any more. Get rid of it any way you can and stay out of it. Don't carry it into your future. Make whatever decisions you need to make to live on a level that is smart for your income level. If that means a smaller house, or older cars instead of new ones etc., do the smart thing.

Don Williams38874.5427430556

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:03 am 
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I thought about this for a long time before giving my $.02 (and that's about all it's worth).....

When I first started building, I was fortunate to live the bay area where there are a number of great builders (some legendary even). Over the years in conversations with many of them I heard the oft repeated story of how if you wanted to make money this is the wrong business to be in.

But when I stood back and looked at their lives I didn't see someone needlessly suffering for their art, some traveled and saw the world. Others traveled around the states, most had more tools that I could shake a stick at, they put food on the table and paid the bills. They weren't rich from what I could tell, but they enjoyed what they did and where able to eek out a living at the same time. I know for some builders it's pretty tight and they live practically guitar to guitar, it's tough doing that. But I also know that at some point it will pay off, you make your own luck through persistance.

This is a tough buisiness to be in, right now we have a flood of builders doing some great work so the markets getting saturated and it's hard to stand out from the pack. Brocks a Marketing guy (most of who I totally distrust, but I make an exception in his case ) but I think he's right, a good number of builders could use some branding and a little quality advertising. There are builders out there who's work I've never been impressed with at all but because they market their instruments people flock to them. That's been a hard lesson for me to learn

All of this really depends on your goals and your intended market. Do you want to be famous and become the next Taylor or do you just want to live comfortably and build guitars??

Mario made a point that I think got lost in the mix, his house is paid for, he has no kids and he lives comfortably making guitars. Marc Blanchard (one of my favorite builders) and his wife Kathy put together a business plan, paid of all their bills, moved to Montana and are making a living just building guitars. How many of us who want to make a living doing this are willing to go to that length? I know of very few story's where someone building in their garage overnight started making money hand over fist. It takes time, persistence and a love for what you are doing, personally I think in 5-7 years we will see a decline in hand builders as builders become frustrated and move on to other things.

I think you can certainly make money doing this, but you have to define at what level you want to be successful. It won't happen overnight, it takes time to build good solid name recognition. Name branding helps, I've taken a hit because of the polarizing name I chose for my little building venture, I've even had clients ask me if it's the smart thing to do, I always tell them no but it feels right so now I'll stick with it

Michelle and I sat down and laid out a plan for where we wanted to be by the years end, we uprooted the whole family and moved to Idaho. I've sunk more money into the new shop than I care to think about (and it's still not finished ), but we have a plan and our hope is that it will all pan out. I expect by summer next year I'll be eating beans and rice for a while and dreaming of steak , we know it's going to take time and sacrifice but nothing good ever comes easily. Will I strike it rich?? probably not but if I can keep the shop lights on, and build guitars and not have to sell the kids to science then I figure I'm doing fine

-Paul-

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:01 am 
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[QUOTE=John Mayes]

Less Materials (apx $30,000)= $57,500

[/QUOTE]

John, you've got $1200 worth of materials (on average) in each guitar? That seems high. Especially for guitars selling for $3500 -- I assume you're not selling guitars made of Brazilian for that price...

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