Official Luthiers Forum!

I've recently undertaken a project that I have never tried before -- building multiple guitars at once. In the past, the closest I've gotten was working on two at the same time, but at a certain point in the process, I began working on one til it was done before turning my attention to the other. This time, I'm attempting to do as many steps as I can working on six builds at the same time.

I'm curious how you folks who've been doing this for a while do it.

I've been just doing what seems basically to be a no-brainer to me so far. Such as joining all six sets of top and back plates, thicknessing them and the sides, installing all of the rosettes, cutting the soundholes, cutting bracing, then installing and shaping the braces, fabricating the neck blanks, etc.

I'm approaching the point where I will soon be needing to build a jig for cutting the fret slots with the table saw blade that Shane sourced to us a while back. That should go pretty quickly.

More immediately though, I am at the point where I'm set to start putting things together. The guitars I'm building are classicals, and I still use the method that Cumpiano outlines -- i.e., joining the top to the neck on a workboard first, then gluing down the sides, etc.

I use a laminate trimmer with a bearing set that I bought from Tracy (one of our advertisers), so that process has been automated as much as possible. I've already cut binding from side offcuts, and have the purfling ready to go as well.

I don't really see at this point any way I can speed up the process without cutting corners, but I'm willing to admit my ignorance on this issue. In fact, I wouldn't even know how to cut corners at this point!

Given that there is a significant degree of individual attention that guitars require for precise fitup and finishing (especially the latter), I just don't see any way I can speed things up appreciably.

I am wondering if those of you who are comfortable with building multiple guitars at the same time might have any sort of insights you would care to provide.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Michael,

I think you'll find that you'll cut a pretty significant amount of time off your builds by building in batches. As we all know, a lot of building guitars is waiting (for glue to dry, finish to cure, wood to arrive, etc., etc.) Building in batches allows you to perform the same step on multiple guitars in succession while you're waiting for the next step to be ready. While your jigs/tools are out and set up, why not do the same operation on three or four guitars? There are certain limitations, of course (sufficient clamps, molds, etc.) but many operations can be performed in this manner.

I think you'll find your quality actually improves. Doing the same operation repetitively usually results in an improvement in quality.

My shop is small, so there's a limit to how many I can do at once (about 4), but if I have enough orders, I always build in batches. Just my $.02. Good luck.

_________________
Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Just playing devil's advocate here. I've found just the opposite to be true. I've found that building in batches is horibably stressful in my little shop. It seams as though I make the same mistake multiple times and without fail I don't have enough room to put things without them getting damaged.
Don't get me wrong, there are lots of tasks that I still do in batches. Neck blanks, linings, etc. are all great things to set up, make a bunch and then break down the setup. But for me, the actual builds happen one at a time.
I agree with Jimmy that there is a lot of down time waiting for glue to dry, etc. But it's easy enough for me to just move on to another task on the same instrument when this is happening.
Now you're $.02 richer.

yeah, I agree with Paul, just don't make the same mistake 6 times. I currently have five or six guitars in various stages of uncompleteness but they are not a batch. I seem o like starting and building guitars more than I like finishing them. I think I'll call a pro finisher one of these days. The only reason I haven't is the pain and risk of shipping them. Another reason I don't usually do batches is I like to try and treat each as an individual as much as possible and processing too many variables (different shapes, scales, etc) leads to mistakes.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Good points, guys. In my case, all six guitars are 10-string classicals with 650mm scales. They will all have the same body shape, same bracing pattern, neck contour, etc. The only differences are relatively minor. E.g., different binding/purfling treatments on a couple, a few with pickups, a few without. Four have cedar tops, two have spruce tops. All have EIR b/s and cedro necks.

I'm in the same situation with regards to available space, and number of clamps, for example. I'm working on two other guitars besides these. So, when I was gluing up the necks, for instance, I was forced to do those one at a time, both because of available bench space and appropriate size clamps. So when each was drying, I worked on the other two guitars.

Making the same mistake six times, though, definitely gives me pause . . . So far, the old "measure twice, cut once" axiom has been standing me in good stead. Helped me catch a few mistakes before they were made. Building in batches has also forced me to become more organized. For example, marking the side and back sets that go together, and even marking the side offcuts that I'll be using for binding so they'll go back with the guitars they belong with.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

I thought it was "measure once, cut twice...or more?"

Just kidding. I'm starting to see how no two luthiers are the same. Once you get into a groove stick with it. As long as you are progressing in somewhat of a timely manner.

Michael---Thanks for letting me drop by the shop! I've already picked up a lot of great ideas. Thanks again!

Jordan

[QUOTE=Jordan Bunte]
Michael---Thanks for letting me drop by the shop! I've already picked up a lot of great ideas. Thanks again!
[/QUOTE]

It was my pleasure. You're more than welcome to drop on back by at any time. Watch out, though -- I might put you to work!

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

I am a proponent of building in batches. My shop time is limited so I have to use it as efficiently as possible. If you are tooled & jigged up to do one operation it is much more efficient to run a batch through as to run one. Most of your machine time is spent in set up.

I would suggest keeping your batches small and manageable in the beginning say 2 or 3 at a time. Work out a system that works for you and be open and willing to change as you learn more efficient ways of doing tasks.

Don't get in over your head. I had 21 going in a batch at one time and it nearly made me lose my mind. I work the most efficiently now in batches of 6-8. In the summer I usually scale back to batches of four because it gives me more time to chase the little white ball ;)

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I've built in batches of 12 or 14 at a time, but my next goal is to return to one at a time. I find myself disconnected with my cleints as the batch increases in size, and I don't like that. Going to one at a time will let me go back to one on one in that respect.

Another thing is that while it's faster top do all the same steps at the same time due to machine set up and all, and when you're doing the steps you enjoy it is a lot of fun, it's a real downer when you get to the parts that are physical(neck carving, binding scraping, buffing, etc...) and/or you're not all that good at, since these can stretch for weeks or months in a large batch. You also go months without hearing and playing a new one(a big high for me is to get to play my instruments, for those of you who don't play, I guess this is moot, and I feel for you), and without income.

Bah. Don't need that s&^% anymore.... a few more to complete then it should be one at a time. Two at most.Mario38877.992349537

I am not building in batches, and currently have 4 going but three different styles. Two Dreads, one Grand Concert and one Classical. My thoughts were to do some of the steps at the same time like thickness sanding and after I started joining plates and glueing braces, I found that each began to spread out which allowed me actually to improve at every step and try some new things I have learned here on the OLF. So Dread #1, Box is closed, finishing neck work, Classical is on the spool clamps moving to glueing top - Back and begin binding process. Dread #2 has bend sides, plates thicknessed and is moving now to initial sanding, making ready to join plates and Grand Concert is just thicknessed. I have the necks and headplates for all four in some stage of completion as well. So with them staggered it allows me to have things going on at each of my work stations and it keeps things always interesting. I find doing multiples to be a good thing for me.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

I am not building in batches, and currently have 4 going but three different styles

That IS a batch.... A batch of 4.

They don't all have to be the same to be a "batch". In fact, I've never, ever, made two of the same...

I always have two instruments going at once, minimum, these days, although to date it's been 1 electric, 1 acoustic. I'm going to be starting three new acoustics shortly, all different body styles, as well as a pair of electrics. I do prep some bits and pieces in batches, such as necks blanks, fingerboards, jointing, lining, that sort of thing, because it's easier.

My first real 'batch' build pair (because acoustics and electrics are so different it doesn't feel like building in batches when you have one of each going) was/is the strat/tele pair that's lying around waiting for a finish. Doing two identical necks and very similar bodies concurrently speeds things up considerably.

I attempt to batch the items that require machine setup such as neck blanks, brace blanks, X braces, jointing tops, backs and sides, thickness sanding backs and sides. I tend to sand the tops indiviually because most rosettes are different and I sand after it is installed.

Once I start gluing braces to the top, bending sides, fitting in the mold, gluing in lining, I go to one at a time. I will start others in stages as the side bender, go bar deck, and molds become available. 3 is the most I have had going at the same time. As Mario pointed out, this is still working in batches. In fact, the last 3 guitars I started, are in exactly the same stage right now......final finish. They started out a few months apart, but I tend to work on the phases I happen to be in the mood for at the time. So, they all ended up in the same dreaded phase......ready for final finish. Hate that Nitro!!

Michael,

I building only classical/flamenco and only build in batches if I can avoid having to do less at a time. I am using only 3 different plantilla and because most of the components are the same, what works best for me is to do all of one machining operation in one setup such as V-joints for several days, or joining tops or backs, or building and inlaying rosettes. I do cut all of my brace stock to standard sizes in batches ahead of time. I also keep a stock of tentelones cut in two sizes.

What I do not do in batches is fan bracing and voicing. I do the main cross braces up top but leave the fan bracing and voicing for individual instruments. In that way my ear doesnt become dull to the differences per instrument which I fear would happen if I spent a few days voicing. I voice by a combination of tap tuning/intuition and chaldni "glitter pattern" and will finish that for each instrument individually and then switch to other non-voicing tasks so that the next instrument is a new sound experience when I voice it. It is very subjective but that approach works for me.

I do not do the cross braces on the backs ahead of time as the way I assemble I install the back braces into the sides first and then glue the back. It is just the way I learned.

I tend to build more spruce tops than cedar and build about 3 flamenco to every 7 classical so other than a standard neck and plantilla, the bracing is different. Any thinning of the tops for the flamencos I do during the individual voicing/bracing as well.

When I was more actively building I would do batches of six...these days because of work and health issues I am doing batches of 4 which is still more productive in terms of labor saving than individual but still less than batches of 6.

As far as making the same mistake in batches, I would rather make a mistake in a component and catch it (much more likely to catch if you are doing a batch) than mistake small mistakes on each individual guitar due to slight differences in setup.

For me batches gave me more consistency over the same parts which allows me to focus on the parts that make a bigger difference in the end product.

As an aside... Michael, I understand your passion for 10 string...I like the concept but found that for me the 10 string classical felt too heavy and unbalanced, mostly from the mass of the neck. It was a 10 string Rameriz. I am trying at the moment to negotiate for an 11 string Bohlin alto guitar from a player in Germany as for me the music I want to play on a >8 string would be Lute music. I have a LaCote school Terz for that part of the repetoire and 6 string classical and flamenco for most pieces. For me the bridge in between a terz and a classical is the alto which some describe as a Lute for guitarists.

Colin...I am hoping to have time free at the end of the summer to build a 10 course lute (after Venere). There are times when nothing sounds or plays like a lute...it has been about 14 years since I last built a Lute (I have only built 2, repaired a few more) and want to see if having more experience now at building what the result will be like.

OK, I guess I am batching after these new definitions and comments. To me "batching" or building in batches to phrase it differently leads me to refer more to what a factory type builder does or their approach to building, assembly line construction if you will. My thinking on what I do, which is to combine mostly the machining processes while jigs and equipment are set as well as work board, clamping etc. limitations was not the same. I stand corrected.

As well, although all being guitars, bracing, size, design, finish, neck, thicknessing perameters, tuner types, scales, etc. etc. are all either slightly or drastically different between say a classical and one of the dreads, I just did not see it as "Batching". But now I know.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

   I make parts in batches - bridges, head and tail blocks, linings, neck blanks, braces and back grafts - but usually only build one or two guitars at a time. That way I can grab a part, hit the glue joint surfaces with a plane, and keep going. I think it is important when building in batches to make sure all glue joints are freshly prepared.

                    Paul

Well, it's only my 2nd and 3rd guitar, but I did decide to build them in sequence, seemed reasonable...that only lasted through the box completion stage then I got so wrapped up in neck to body fit, pore filling, sanding, more pore filling, sanding...yikes I forgot all about #3, it's still sitting there waiting on #2 to be completed. About two more weeks and I'll be finished with #2...Yes!! So for me I think it works well to do many of the processes in tandem(at least)but dang, if I was doing these together the whole way, seems like I'd never finish either of them.

Greg

_________________
Gwaltney Guitars

[QUOTE=Shawn]
As an aside... Michael, I understand your passion for 10 string...I like the concept but found that for me the 10 string classical felt too heavy and unbalanced, mostly from the mass of the neck. It was a 10 string Rameriz. I am trying at the moment to negotiate for an 11 string Bohlin alto guitar from a player in Germany as for me the music I want to play on a >8 string would be Lute music.[/QUOTE]

Hey Shawn,

Actually it's a bit ironic for me. I had pretty much gotten the 10-string out of my system altogether a long time ago, which is why I sold my 10-string Ramirez a few years ago. It was the guy who bought it who urged and cajoled me into building another 10-string for him, which is what got this whole thing going.

As to the neck-heaviness of a 10-string, honestly this never bothered me. Just the weight of the right arm resting on the guitar is more than enough to counteract the additional neck weight. The Bohlin 11 will probably be neck heavy as well, but I'm sure you'll quickly get used to it.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Here is my opinion on this. Until you get your building technique down and can build a nice clean guitar I recommend you don't build more than one at a time. The reason for this is that you will find things along the way you want to change or worse, will end up repeating mistakes.
I like to build in batches of two or three. I then evaluate the best sounding guitar and hold it back. It then becomes a comparison for the next batch of guitars. The best sounding one of that batch then gets held back as a comparision for the next batch and so on.

Excellent point about having one's building technique down, Robbie. I'll admit, my technique is still improving with each guitar I build. I also like your idea about holding back the best instrument to use it as a model for the next batch. Unfortunately for me (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), five of the six I'm working on right now are orders. Only one is being built on spec, and I intend to bring it to the 10-string festival as a display/demo next month. Hopefully, I won't be bringing it back home

Actually, now that I think about it, I do have a comparison model of sorts -- the first 10-string I built, which I kept for myself. If I can get all my 10-strings to come out sounding as good as that one, I'll be happy.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Michael,
I have tried building six at once and found no real advantage...in fact, in some ways it was frustrating because you didn't see progression as fast. I prefer now to have several projects going at once ( two or three) that can be at differing stages to keep me busy and efficient ( I don't know if that's really possible for me).

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Dave,

Yeah, it's the slow progress that's concerning me right now. In my case, reality is always breathing down my neck. I have two other guitars that should be finished this week, and two of the batch of six have to be finished by July 5th. So, I will most likely have to set aside the other four. With about three weeks left, I suspect I'll be spending more than a few 16-hour days out in the shop.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live