Official Luthiers Forum!

I dissolve mine on the kitchen stove in the smallest cooking pot we have with a candy thermometer. I put about the water ratio you mentionned and heat it slowly and stirr. I let it "stew" at 145 for about 20 minutes, adjust the consistency with water, then transfer it to bottles. I would think it is better to let it sit for 24 hrs for the glue protein to absorb water, but I have use it immediately in some occasion.
It would be better if you could put something on the bottom in the hot pot so that the bottle is surronded with water. A plastic or stainless, mesh or grid, marbles, etc.
If you go too high in temperature you can destroy the glue protein, but an occasionnal 150-155 is OK I think.

I do prepare 2-3 bottles and keep one for the current build and put the others in the freezer sometimes up to a year.
You put the one you use back in the fridge at night although it is not critical if you forget it, you can still use it as long as it does not get mold or rancid (sp)

Check out Frets.com Frank Fords Repair site.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideg lue.html

He has links to other articles as well.

Hesh:
1) Keep the lid open
2) Less heat is better than 145+...as long as it is liquid and not gel. Open time will be reduced if you get the temp too low. You may be able to connect to a dimmer switch to get lower temp consistently.
3) I follow the same ratio and then fine tune. Make sure you use DISTILLED water for consistency. We never know what effects contaminents in tap water can do to performance.
4) Keep off the elements...also keep the air space to a minimum.
5) I follow the 24 hour rule.
6) I keep filled bottles in the freezer. No air space and double wrapped in freezer bags. We want to prevent freezer burn (dehydration). I've stored this way for 9 months. I keep my working bottle in the fridge when not in use. Throw it out before it grows mold...about 1 month.

The Frank Ford site is a great resource...be sure to check it out.

Good luck and welcome to the HHG club!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

BTW, Hesh, I've found that those digital cooking thermometers can easily go wacky. My experience is that the old-fashioned dial kind is more reliable. At the very least, before each use of the thermometer, check to see that it's giving you a reasonably accurate reading of the ambient air temperature.    

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I have one of those old fashioned dial thermometers that I stick in the hot pot. I had to play with the dial for a while but I finally got it set where it stays on 145 degrees all day long.

You might just want to experiment with changing the dial on the hot pot in very small increments to see if you can fine tune it.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Hesh, keep me posted on your experiences, as you may recall from an earlier post, I am set with all I need to move to HHG, but have not yet, letting you be the guinea pig so to speak, let me know what you come up with and how it works on this build, timing and such, good luck,

Mike
White Oak, Texas

I use a automotive AC Dial type thermometer.I get it right at 145.

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Way to go Hesh, i'm with JJ on all his answers though i mix 1:1 ratio, he's right all the way, Frank Ford's site will definitely give you more info on this subject.Serge Poirier38879.9901157407

I have been using this idea I got from Frets.com. You mix up a batch of hot hide glue and then pour it into a paper cup. Place this in the fridge over night and when it is gelled all the way through cut the cup away. The gelled glue is then cut up in to like 1"cubes. These are stored in the fridge and when you need only a small amount you take a cube and place it in a small plastic disposible cup. Heat water in microwave to about 160. Place the plastic cup in your coffee mug of 160 dgree h2o. As you walk this over to your bench your glue will melt. The key is for the glue to not exceed 140 not the water bath. I measure the water bath and when the water is at 140 I spread the glue and clamp.

Room temperature and humidity affect working time. The colder the room the less working time you have. You can heat the wood that you are gluing with a heat lamp or blanket or blow dryer. This gives you more time as well. Once the glue has started to gell it's too late. Tomas38879.995

Hesh, when I mix up a batch of hide glue I tend to mix it thicker than normal and the I can add de-ionised water to it to get the consistency I want for each job. I mix up a batch, probably enough for a couple of instruments and then put it in an old plastic ice cube tray to gel. When gelled I then put the individual cubes in a freezer bag, suck the air out and seal. These can then go into the freezer. I like to use a baby bottle warmer to melt mine it has an insert which keeps the bottle off of the element and as it is narrower the bottle has no tendency to turn over. I have also found (Russell has the same warmer and will concur) that it holds the temperature dead on very consistently. make sure your stainless steel bolt is scrupulously clean and degreased before putting it into the bottle.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin I love the ice cube tray idea. Now if I could just get my automatic ice macker to spit out hide glue

Hesh, Frank Ford makes a big deal out of getting the proportions right. He actually weighs everything out. One time my little jar tiped and I got extra water in the glue. I tried the glue anyway but it definitely didn't work.


Have a good day, make dust but don't inhale...

For brushing, 1.8 : 1 works fine.

For using it straight from the squeeze bottle it should be thicker so it won't run when applied, i.e to braces or kerfed liner prior to bonding the plates. Mario is credited with this idea and works well.

One of the best practices is to have your surfaces warm (hair dryer, microwave, hot plate, etc.) prior to applying the glue...it will give you a bit longer open time. Also, do lots of dry runs and time yourself. Rehearsals make the main performance go much more trouble-free.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Hesh...I do one brace at a time. I apply the adhesive, position it and gobar clamp it within 20-30 seconds. I also heat each brace in a microwave for 15 seconds before applying glue. In my opinion, if it takes a minute to do 1 brace, you need more rehearsals. Do some trial runs and watch out for whether you get the surfaces mated while the glue is still liquid...not gelled.

Don't get scared about this...it just requires a few more rigid rules to follow than the other glues. The rewards are worth the effort. No question in my mind that you can do this effectively.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Now I am wondering how fast you have to move with HHG.

Let's say I have done a dry run with a brace, marked the spot, not warmed the surfaces but work in 74 degrees (or hotter). I squeeze out a bead on the brace position the brace, press and start putting the go bars on. The entire process takes less than a minute. Is this fast enough?

I don't plan of using HHG for backs and tops or more timely things that require positioning like joining the sides to the tail, neck block, only braces for now and probably bridges since I use registration pins.[/QUOTE]

Hesh, that's right do one brace at a time, but I have the positions marked on the top with a pencil line in the centre of the brace at each end, so that it can be seen when the brace is in position. I have my braces heating up on an electric hostess tray (bought cheap of eBay) next to the go bar deck. Heat the top with a hair dryer, take warm brace off tray run bead of glue on and immediately position brace, add centre go-bar then the one each end while ensuring brace is lined up with the pencil marks, add any more go-bars according to brace length. When glue gels scrape off sqeeze-out with sharpened spruce wedge. Move on to the next brace.

Colin



Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[quote]Many, many thanks! I am going to go home tonight and glue my dog to the wall...... [/quote]

I've never heard that luthier term before, what does that mean? Is the dog a brace?

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I've spread HHG glue 2 ways:

1) Using the thin stuff, I have brushed the glue onto the brace surface and then placed it between the lines in the plate.

2) Using the thicker stuff, I lay a thin bead along the length of where the brace will be placed on the plate (between the lines)...no need to spread it out because the brace will spread it out when you mash it against the plate.

Method 2 will take some practice in knowing how much of a bead to lay down...you just want enough to produce minimal squeeze-out. Just make sure you get some squeeze-out.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Hesh,

The really nice thing about hhg is that if you foul up, it is easy to release and clean up the joints with warm/hot water and off you go again. Be a bit careful though - I was taking off a back brace washing in the hot water and gently lifting the brace, but then noticed that where it crossed the seam the centre joint was opening up too Another beauty of the hhg, I ran in a bead of hhg in the join and was able to "re-tent" that small area! I know now to only clean with warm water while the relevant joint is clamped.

It seems that the hhg needs the moisture to release as well as heat. Today has been 30 degrees plus with the railtracks buckling but the joints on the top/back and rim set of my latest build have stayed as solid as a rock!

As for spreading, I use a recycled small Titebond bottle as a glue pot and just run a bead along a brace etc. As JJ says it does it's own spreading when you put on the go-bars. As for the 145 degrees this is a max not to go over - I'm not as paranoid as I used to be as at around 120 and 130 degrees the glue is very workable (especially at the temperatures over here at the moment). Having your workshop/workpieces at a good temperature is probably more important.

At 1.8:1 it is a little runny but still works from the bottle for me. Something a little more viscous would be more controlable so Colins way of mixing thicker and then adding water to get the right mix when you use it makes a lot of sense.

I was sceptical at first about the tonal benefits of hhg as I think builders come to use it when their skills are on the upward learning curve but I have done 2 complete guitars with it so far and they are the best sounding ones I have made so far.

hhg has a lot going for it in terms of ease of use/repair etc - the only downer for me is that I suffer from eczema and the hhg is much more of an irritant for my skin than Titebond and other alphatics - but hey "Il fait suffrire . . .:

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010