Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Guys and Gals-

I am finally going to get around to my first build and have decided on an OM for myself. I have a few sets of tonewood and would like opinions, please, about what top/back combo works well in an OM that will be used mainly for fingerpicking. I am not much of a player, so I don't have any particular preference of sound (bright, mellow, ect.) I guess that has more to do with the style of guitar and builder than the woods used anyway. The main thing is a well balanced sound between the trebles, mids and bass and equal string volume. I do want a guitar with nice overtones as well as a nice fundamental tone too. I know this is a tall order for my first guitar but I'm very realistic. I know this guitar isn't going to be everything I want and I'll make lots of mistakes, but I'll still love it like a mother loves an ugly baby. Ok, enough rambling and on to the wood choices.

Top woods include bearclaw sitka (3-5 years air-dried), lutz (3 years air-dried), very old German (30+ years air-dried) and one plain AAA sitka top (5-6 years air-dried). All of these tops are well seasoned, well quartered, have little or no runout and are stiff in both directions. They all ring out with a fairly complex and clear tone when tapped or scratched and the sustain of the taptone is long for all these tops. They all sound different though - but nice.

Back and side choices are Cocobolo, EI rosewood, very colorful and figured Oregon myrtle, figured Eastern and Claro walnuts, various African mahoganies (figured and unfigured), South American mahoganies (most all have figure - flame, quilt and plum pudding quilt) and some truly fine Cuban mahogany. I guess I am used to rosewood and mahogany guitars but I'm really wanting to experiment with the other stuff too. The main thing I want is back and sides that are easy to work with and that make a nice guitar. I think most of these choices are easy to work with except the figured mahoganies, but let me know if that is what you like.

I am also looking for how your OM guitars sounded with the different wood combos that you have built. I will be bracing with either Red or Carpathian spruce and using mainly HHG for everything with LMI white glue for stuff like the liners and neck laminations. This will be a simple guitar with no inlays at all (think Martin style 18 or 21). Thanks in advance for all the help. Now fire away guys and gals.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

[QUOTE=John Lewis] Hi Guys and Gals-

..... The main thing is a well balanced sound between the trebles, mids and bass and equal string volume. I do want a guitar with nice overtones as well as a nice fundamental tone too. I know this is a tall order for my first guitar but I'm very realistic. ....

I am also looking for how your OM guitars sounded with the different wood combos that you have built....[/QUOTE]

Certainly no offense intended John, but personally I think that 1) on your first guitar if you can get it to play properly and sound half way decent that is a great first attempt. Having all of these specific tonal goals may be over reaching a bit for your first. I think to try to accomplish all of that may put too much pressure on you for your first. Just build and have fun.

Secondarily, I think people put WAY WAY WAY too much emphasis on what kind of wood does this or that. In the end I think it is much more about the Indian, than the arrows.

Personally I would grab some EIR and Sitka and go at it -- just because they are plentiful, reasonably cheap, and sound good (when used properly).

I hope this isn't taken as a discouragement. This is a long term process to learn how to build good guitars, for now just build and have fun.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I agree with Brock...rather than use some primo German Spruce (which you may never be able to get again) I would stick to EIR and Sitka...if the Sitka you have is bearclaw then that is cool.

If you are looking for something different than rosewood from your stash then Walnut is a good choice as it is easy to bend, and will make a nice looking guitar that is different than the more typical EIR.

Good Luck...take plenty of notes as to construction details such as dimensions of both materials and the guitar. All of these will be good to refer to in the future to compare against future builds.

Two key things that you may already know...it will sound better than you will expect despite whatever went right or wrong and never sell your first guitar as it will always be special.

John,

I agree with Brock n Shawn, EIR and Sitka. A wonderful combination that will make a great guitar. The EIR will be a treat for you to use. It smells so good! Kinda like a good cigar, or pipe smoke. And Sitka is hard to beat when paired with the EIR. Plus, if all goes wrong with one or the other, they are easy to get more of. That is a big benefit right there.

Keep us posted.

Jeff

Welp, I gotta say "me too" regarding the tonewood advice. Real hard to go wrong with quality sets of sitka and EIR. Save the other more expensive and/or exotic sets for when your technique has improved a bit.

Also, if you haven't done so already, pick up a copy of Cumpiano's book. The steel string he builds in his book is an OM more-or-less, so you can even use the bracing pattern and dimensions he specs out.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

EIR and Euro. But that's because I have hardly any Sitka ;-)

Seriously, though, what them other folks said.

I built a Stewmac kit for my first, in a tutored environment...but my second build (which I'll do alone) is, you guessed it, EIR and Lutz (which I got from BobC) for a great price.

Like all these other guys, I'd make my mistakes on cheap wood first, then move onto the good stuff.

Please post as you go.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I would use walnut for the first....very easy to work with and bends like plastic. EIR works great and bends almost like walnut.

best of luck...you came to the right place!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I agree with those guys. Stay with less expensive woods for your first. My first guitar came from wood I got from a lumber yard and milled myself, and didn't cost an arm and a leg. I'm glad I didn't try expensive woods on that first build. Although, the back and sides were ziricote, but it was only $14/bf then...the top was cedar from a local cedar dealer.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Wow guys-

Thanks for all the good advise and your honest opinions.

I think I'm leaning towards the lutz or the bearclaw sitka for the top. For the back and sides, a set of EI rosewood that I got from Allied a year or two ago when they had their first character grade sale. It's almost black looking - it's actually a dark purple with red streaks.

Hesh, I started writing this before I saw your post. I will probably scratch build the first but that is because I have tons of tools and have been involved in a few builds before - this will be my first solo build. I took a class with and live near Kent Everett here in Atlanta. I have access to a few other builders here in my area too. Plus it's just cheaper for me to use stuff I already have - I've got a semi-carved neck to use if I can't get a acceptable neck from scratch. I think the main thing is, I'm already comfortable with most of the tools/techniques of lutherie and have bent sides before, so I'll just take it slow and have fun.

I'm thinking my next guitar will be an Advanced Jumbo replica that will be an "All Zootman Wood" flattop. Or maybe a BANJO - hah. Well, thanks again everybody and keep the advise coming please.John Lewis38887.703287037

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

John, you've got a nice selection of tonewoods to choose from.

A lot of good advice above. I'd save the 30-year old euro spruce for a future instrument.

I'll be the contrarian here -- if you've got some basic woodworking skills and a decent shop or access to someone who can resaw or thickness sand -- I'd say use nice tonewood and try one from scratch.

Years ago I asked Bill Moll the same question you posted -- his advice was use quality tonewood even for your first -- it'll keep you honest and more focused on turning out a nice guitar. So nothing wrong with using some of your EIR or walnut stash -- both bend nicely!

Good luck and keep us posted! Hopefully we'll be seeing more of you and your avatar that never fails to crack me up

[QUOTE=Anthony Z]
Years ago I asked Bill Moll the same question you posted -- his advice was use quality tonewood even for your first -- it'll keep you honest and more focused on turning out a nice guitar.[/QUOTE]

This is what I did for my first guitar. AAA quality Euro spruce top and EIR back/sides from Allied. Really nice stuff. And even though the guitar came out looking pretty ugly if one looked too closely, it sure did sound great!

My reasoning for using high quality tonewoods from the git-go was this: since my goal from the start was to develop the skills to build guitars that I would eventually sell, then it only made sense that I should get used to building with the materials I was most likely to use.

Of course, after that first guitar, I quickly realized there was a universe of tonewood possibilities to choose from. I didn't get back to the Euro spruce/EIR routine until my 7th build, and here I am working on completing number 15, and I still haven't gotten back to that same combination again. Your horizons will broaden as you build more. Shoot, that's half the fun, idnit?

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

I'm a big fan of the Allied opportunity/character grade stuff for beginners like myself. I'm figuring out that the general population isn't checking out tonewood suppliers' websites all day long. Yesterday, I was showing a friend my #2 in progress [insert joke here] made with Allied's opportunity grade EIR, and the first thing he said is, "Wow, that wood is really beautiful!" I think I'm going to stop telling people that it cost $18. I've got it paired up with a 99 cent spruce top from the guy that has the non "s" forum, and it's turning out quite nice so far. I think the key is to go inexpensive, not cheap.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

[quote]I think that you should build a banjo - JUST KIDDING...... [/quote]

Boy! That wasn't funny!

I've never used Heshicons before, they scare my cat!

I think it all depends on your financial situation. Some of this wood sounds pretty nice, but if your going to build for yourself you would probably go that way.
       
     Me, I would probably go with the lower grade and work out any bugs with technique before going to the good stuff.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I'd build from scratch if that is your inclination. Wood? EIR or Walnut with a sitka top! It has worked well for Taylor, Martin and a host of others. Be sure to use a good plan and stick fairly close to it. But the main thing is enjoy the build and the lifetime of pleasure the acomplishment will bring! And of course there will be others!

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I agree that you should use nice wood...not lousy wood. If you have enough woodworking experience, and if you've participated in building a guitar before, then that's fine, as long as you're planning on keeping the guitar. But I would hang on to those really great woods and save them for builds where you have the confidence to get the most out of them. You can build a beautiful instrument but if it sounds and plays lousy, you've wasted high quality materials.

If you have woodworking skills, you get way more out of scratch building than building with a kit etc.
By scratch building, I mean buying lumber, milling it, resawing, making a neck blank, cutting it out, etc. Like I said, I even went so far as to go to a cedar dealer and bought a big hunk of cedar and resawed it for a top. There's something about that whole process that feeds the soul and brings you closer to the final product. Other than the strings and tuners, it's truly your creation.

The other side of the coin is, that the Allied Opportunity grade EIRW is pretty darn nice if you're like me and could care less about cosmetically perfect woods for backs and sides. By that I mean the straight boring grain with even color. Ick. Sometimes I really like it, other times I just want more character.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Anthony Z]
I'll be the contrarian here -- if you've got some basic woodworking skills and a decent shop or access to someone who can resaw or thickness sand -- I'd say use nice tonewood and try one from scratch.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with this too. To quote Howard Klepper from memory (where is that guy anyways?) "...don't worry about it, the stuff grows on trees!".

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[QUOTE=Arnt] [QUOTE=Anthony Z]
I'll be the contrarian here -- if you've got some basic woodworking skills and a decent shop or access to someone who can resaw or thickness sand -- I'd say use nice tonewood and try one from scratch.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with this too. To quote Howard Klepper from memory (where is that guy anyways?) "...don't worry about it, the stuff grows on trees!". [/QUOTE]

+1

I went into it all blind, albeit with the experience of 6 or 7 (can't recall) electric guitars, which helped me...build the neck. The rest definitely wasn't familar territory in any way, and it worked great. The upside: parts for a guitar cost a LOT less than StewMac or LMI charge for a kit. Lots less.Mattia Valente38886.6385416667

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Building a guitar from parts may be a lot less than a Stew-Mac or LMI kit in Europe but it most certainly is not a lot less in the states.[/quote]

Respectfully, I disagree; a good Stika, Lutz, Engelman top (say AAA quality) costs around 45 bucks, Good quality EIR set, about 60-70, neck blank (if you use a stacked heel) can be had for 15-20 bucks (Sapele, even Honduran) if you've got a decent local lumber yard, binding and purfling isn't that expensive (10 bucks), pre-made bridge or bridge blank, ditto, a rosette is just a bit of extra purfling (or a piece of hardwood; my first ever rosette was a wood one, and it really is quite simple). Bracing is 10-15 bucks for a lot more than you need for one guitar, tail and heel blocks are easily made from some more mahogany, ditto lining (if you don't want to spend 5 bucks), and tuning machines you gotta buy anyway. Bone nut and saddle blanks can be had for about a dollar each on eBay (OK, so you spend 15, and get 10 sets or so). Slotted fretboard's, what, 30 bucks? Fretwire costs are trivial.

Tools? You need a lot of the tools whether you build from a kit or from scratch, and if you ever plan to build from scratch, that's a cost that's spread.

By my tally, that's about $220-250 dollars, including a set of basic Gotoh machines, for a good quality guitar. For $420 (rosewood kit from StewMac) you can build an equivalent guitar, have made radius dishes, a go-bar deck, a fox-style bender and bought the heat blanket to go with it. Possibly even have invested in StewMac's slotting mitre box+template (subtract cost of pre-slotted fretboard).

It's very easy to spend a lot more, but it can certainly be done for that; heck, it can be done for a good bit less, even. Stuff here is, if anything, more expensive than in the US: VAT and import duties merely pile it on even more. A few suppliers have very, very good prices (ie, the Spanish, and we've got unbeatable pricing on top grade Euro spruce, yes), but mostly that stuff's not ready to build with immediately (the back/side sets, anyway).

Ultimately, I think every beginner should read at least one book on the subject, and spend a good long while perusing various archives of info (the MIMF.com library is top of my list; there just aren't any other forums that have such a well-organized and large library of information that's so easily accessible), and then decide whether the bits that are done for you in a kit are too difficult for them. But I will wholeheartedly endorse building from scratch even for a relatively rank beginner if they feel up to a bit of a challenge after having read stuff about the process.

Hesh, I don't have a strong opinion about kits vs scratch building for first timers, and I really didn't have that in mind when I posted my tongue in cheek comment. I'm sure kits are a good value. Me? I had quite a bit of woodworking experience before I made my first instument, or so I thought, but I did not have a clue!

I DO think that when you are starting out, generally the process is far more important than the product, and you should not set your goals so high that you get dicouraged or fear the nest step. Be humble, keep your senses open, but be fearless and dive in! I actually think it is a good idea to forget the fished product for a while, just get good materials, follow a proven design, do each step as well as you can, and you will surprise yourself. There is more than enough to learn just by doing the basics, they are not all so basic after all. If that means you should start with raw materials, a kit or seomthing in between I can't say, but it sounds like John has enough experience to build a fine guitar from the materials he has on hand already.

In my opinion the knowledge you gain from a good learning experience will be much more valuable to you than any guitar.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[quote]Billy when are ya going to get a pic and bio up man? [/quote]

Now both my cat and me are scared! I'm starting to feel like you probably did, going after the Zootster!

I have to get my sisters camera, I guess, it's only fair!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)