Official Luthiers Forum!

And the question will be something like, "Which would you rather...?"
But first, some background:
So I'm building this Ambrosia maple guitar to take to the GAL Convention. The headstock inlay calls for something special on the fretboard. I ponder this for a while, and then settle on something rather conventional. With a little twist. Now the problem turns out to be that I no longer like the "little twist", only it's already inlaid in the fretboard.
I now have two choices:
1) leave it as is, and suffer the disgrace of a poor design, or-
2) rout out the offensive part, correct it with what
should have been there, and suffer the disgrace of what looks like poor execution.

(Specifically, I am replacing two 7mm squares with two 5mm ones. The resulting fill shows all around the replacements, and looks visible to the discerning. And there will be plenty of discerning folks at this convention!)

My choice--was to opt for the embarrassment of "poor execution" over the disgrace of "poor design". Which got me wondering just how you guys and gals would approach this same predicament?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, I'm just curious. My decision was to honor what "should" be there. What looks better, what looks appropriate. And the feat of pulling off a unified design seemed more important to me than a perfect execution of an inferior design.

So what's more important to you?
Excellence in execution, or excellence in design?
And, the third option ("do it right in the first place, you nimrod") is not an option. We're taking it off the table.

Which would you rather?

Steve Steve Kinnaird38886.0043171296

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I think Excellence in execution is more important. I say live with the bad design. I feel if you try to modify it will probably be noticable. Kind of like when a guy has a tattoo of their old girl's name covered over with a new girls name. No matter how good the artist is you can still tell. It will standout like a sore thumb.This is just my opinion. I'm sure it's probably not as bad as you think it is. Some time we are a little to hard on ourselves and become our own worse critic's.

Man, this is tough one. Ultimately, I think I'd go with design, but also
because most people won't be that close to the things I make.

Steve, leave it the way it is....obviously you liked it the way you first made it, so it must look nice and I'm sure it was properly executed. I'm sure it will be fine the way it is.
look at the facts.
It looks nice + its well executed + its already done =
less time and no visible gap fills!

but I'm sure you'll make the right decision!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Up too late, aren't we?
Peter brings up a useful point, one that I wrestle with at times, that of second-guessing oneself. When is it good enough, so just leave it alone?
Point taken.

However, the revision is already done. Don't get me wrong, it's not horrendous, in fact, it turned out pretty well. It just brought up the question of importance to me, what I value most, etc.

SK

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I think Peter M. advice is great, and although you may not be happy with the "twist" or design element you tried, thought it would be cool, did it and now don't think it is that cool, that kind of stuff bothers me as well.

I would leave it the way it is, for his same reasons, I am sure that to most folks, it is a beautiful guitar, especially with the Ambrosia (just got some myself and love it) and other details to your build. Your work and willingness to share knowledge on this forum would tell me that the guitar is really nice and some folks might even like the twist. The hardest thing for me in these endeavors is pleasing myself, sometimes that gets in the way of progress.

I however, struggle with this same question and am glad you put it out there and forced some thought on your predicament. I would probably do it the hard way myself, and create an even bigger mess in the process because I lean towards the design.

Best of Luck in your decision

Mike
White Oak, Texas

    I would of let it go too! You could of always changed it after the show! When it comes aesthetics there's a lot of leaway, but poor carry through is poor carry through. Even though you changed on purpose it's hard to tell people that! I hope things go well anyway!Billy T38886.1154861111

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I think I would suffer poor design before poor execution.

Design seems more a matter of taste. Some people will love what you did, others won't. However, everyone can agree about poor execution.

   Now with all that being said. I'm certain your guitar will look marvellous on both counts.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Design, whether it is liked or disliked is a purely subjective thing. What one person hates, another person likes. I remember someone once criticizing the shape of someone else's headstock, over on another forum. They thought it was ugly as anything. I liked it. I also seem to remember someone not really liking a sunburst on someone's guitar, but it eventually grew on them. Weird things like that happen when it comes to design elements. The taste for design is both trendy and fickle.

Execution is, and will always be, the mark of where we are as builders. That is also directly related to how an instrument sounds and plays.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

May I suggest that you rout off the top of the fretboard from one fret slot to the next, then cap it with matching wood. The repair should be invisible.

Al

Steve

If I may hijack the thread for a second - How do you treat the worm holes in the ambrosia maple? I have a really nice set myself that has been on my shelf for a couple of years now.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Steve,

Excellent question, and one I am sure we all ponder. Each time I have gone back and tried to correct something "I" saw as a mistake, I have only made it worse, and then regretted it. But, I think this is more of a lack of experience and skill. Someone with your knowledge and skill can fix design elements after the fact, so I think it was the right thing to do. Me, I live with them for the most part, but with each build I am able to mend a few inconsistancies, and gain that needed experience and skill.

Got a picture?

Jeff

Steve,

I think execution is more important than design for all the reasons already listed.

With that said, maybe you might consider not taking that guitar to GAL. You have a website full of awesome guitars which are as good as any I've seen. I don't think I would risk the possibility of getting labeled as a sloppy builder when you have done such great work. Of course it's probably not as bad as we're all thinking, but if it's not to your standard, I would pull it and only show what you are truely proud of.

Good luck!

John

[QUOTE=jtkirby] Steve

If I may hijack the thread for a second - How do you treat the worm holes in the ambrosia maple? I have a really nice set myself that has been on my shelf for a couple of years now.[/QUOTE]
I have seen people who fill them with black epoxy. And leave them be. It add's some character to the the look. Looks really nice I believe i seen a few pic's on here where they did that. Maybe you could do a search of the archive for some articles on ambrosia maple.

I would opt for the better design and put up with a little fill around the inlay. Design trumps execution. That answer may betray my own weakness. I prefer the impressionist painters to nearly all the realistic painters.John K38886.8332523148

I agree with pretty much everyone here. Let me explain.
When it comes to my personal opinion, I agree with your brother. Design trumps all and it MUST be right on my guitars. That's why I have a big stack of half finished stuff that has been abandoned for one reason or another.
On the other hand, in a situation like this where discerning eyes will be looking at it very closely, I might tend to lean more to the executation side of things rather than the design.
Heck, if it were me, I'd remove the board and replace it with one with the right sized inlay and not filler. then add the old one to my huge stack.

i've intentionally skipped down to the post section so as to avoid the influence of the others who have posted before me.

the design element you mention is one of esthetics, which is a matter of personal preference. after all, even if you don't, some may like what you have done.

but a deficiency in workmanship is not a matter of personal preference but an example to all of what they can expect from you. to take to gal, i think you want it to be as fine as you can make it, and perhaps lable the design experimwntal????crazymanmichael38886.8705208333

Why not rout out a section of fingerboard between two fret slots, cap that routed section with another piece of ebony, level, clean up the slots and reinlay the piece. You would never know it, the joint line would be hidden by the fingerboard binding and broken at the fret slots so it should be a completely invisible fix

Well guys, thanks for your thoughts. And it sounds like some of you have put more thought into this than I have! I hear the argument about execution being important. That's why I'm bothered about this in the first place. (Otherwise, I wouldn't care. I'd be an artiste' (sp?), and probably think "phooey" on your opinions...and everyone else's, for that matter.)

Don says that execution is the mark of where we are as builders. I can agree with that, and I know that I am judged by that standard. But you know, when I look at a guitar, I can't help it... I look at more than the purfling lines, the sharp corners, the pretty inlays. I'm groping for words here as to what I'm looking AT, or FOR---maybe it's soul. Or style. Or flair? Panache? I love details as much as the next guy, but I sure hope it's more than details. You've seen guitars--or any art work--that just spoke to you. Something about all its parts hung together perfectly. And, you've probably seen work that was otherwise.

It comes down to this--that inlay, in its former state, would have bothered me everytime I saw the guitar.
It's just something I couldn't have lived with, and we all have those points. Alain said design is a matter of taste. Again, I can agree with that. But don't tell that to the ancient Greeks...if you can find any. They would say that there are indeed rules, golden means, perfect proportions to be discovered and utilized. I'm no ancient Greek, but perhaps like them, I don't hold all designs as equally valid. For instance, I thought mine was poorly thought out.

It also comes to this--no way I'm routing out a chunk of fretboard. The repair doesn't look that bad. And no way I'm leaving this guy at home. It's going with me to Washington. So all you GAL attendees can stop by my table, scrutinize my fretboard, then razz me on the OLF.

Something I think the ancient Greeks would approve of.

Thanks for the back-n-forth, guys.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

[QUOTE=Pwoolson]
Heck, if it were me, I'd remove the board and replace it with one with the right sized inlay and not filler. then add the old one to my huge stack. [/QUOTE]

Absolutely the right answer, accept only good design AND top notch execution. Pull the board and replace it, you know that you'll never be truly happy with any other solution. As they say, "you know it makes sense".

As I've said before that Ambrosia guitar is one of the best I've ever seen, a real eye grabber, so 'don't spoil the ship for a h'apennyworth of tar', pull the board.

ColinColin S38887.2167361111

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I'm with Colin and Paul. The quality of your work deserves the "no compromise" solution.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

[QUOTE=A Peebels] May I suggest that you rout off the top of the fretboard from one fret slot to the next, then cap it with matching wood. The repair should be invisible.

Al[/QUOTE]

I did this on an unfortunate hammered dulcimer fingerboard which had a 6 1/2 fret position. Guess where the fret markers were? All off by one fret above 6 1/2!

I routed the ebony between frets down to the maple, placed .022 plastic in the fret slot areas surrounding the patch, and glued in a new ebony block. As the glue set up, I pulled the plastic and had minor reslotting when complete.
The repair was invisible, even to the builder,(whom was informed and given every option prior to this one.)

You said it bothered you initially, and it seems it still does after the "change". I believe you'll be much happier with a repair that may be a pain, but gives you "peace of mind" in the end!

Best of luck!    Paul

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Paul Bordeaux
http://www.bordeauxinlay.com

Steve,

how about a pic? Maybe a visualization would give us a better idea of how much fill there really is/isn't.

Cheers!

John

If there's time to replace the fretboard and do the inlay/finish repairs & fretwork/setup, then do it. As Colin said...always best to accept only both when there are those options. Forget what I say, and do what you feel is right.
After all, it has YOUR name on it....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."