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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:30 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Ok. So here is an interesting quandry. I have a cheap digital hygrometer that I have used for years. I mostly keep the shop around 45% but during the times that I am working on electrics I don't keep as close of an eye on things.

I recently bought a used Abbeon analog hygrometer. These are suppossed to be highly accurate, yada yada yada.

Well, my digital reads 55% and my Abbeon reads 72%. Again, it isn't a crisis because I am mostly finishing out a small batch of electrics, but I will soon be starting another batch of acoustics and I want to get this under control.

Any thoughts on how to test a hygrometer to a known standard? Obviously I am probably going to get another one so I can at least have a 3rd data point to compare to, but that still doesn't completely assure me that any of them are correct.

I would be interested to hear ideas / experience on this.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:38 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Over in the UK they give out humidity readings for each area, if they do the same where you are Brock, take them outside and see if they match the reading given


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:53 am 
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There is a way that you can calibrate your meters using a plastic bag and some salt. I cant remember how it works, I think i read it in one of the Big Red Books years ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:59 am 
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Cocobolo
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I got a sling psychrometer for $20 or so on ebay and was able to accurately
calibrate both of my analog hygrometers. Pretty simple little device and
highly accurate.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:09 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I used the calibration method to which Lance referred.

1) Get a bowl of salt and put in just enough water to make it a super-saturated solution.

2) Place it in a plastic bag along with the hygrometer and seal it tightly.

3) Take a reading after 24 hours. It should be 100%. Any deviation is the amount of inaccuracy with your hygrometer.

Mine is 6% off. Some devices have an adjusting screw which allows for re-calibration.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:23 am 
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Mahogany
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I have had an Abbeon hygrometer in my basement shop for several years and I always believed my shop humidity was very high. Then I bought two cheap digital hygrometers, and also obtained another used Dickson unit. The two digital units and the Dickson all agreed fairly well. The Abbeon read maybe 25% RH higher than the other three so I concluded that the Abbeon was off. I adjusted the calibration of the Abbeon by turning a small screw that was visible through one of the holes in the case, and now it reads along with the others.

Years ago when I worked in the Technical Department in a paper mill we used to set up constant humidity evironments in small closed chambers using saturated salt solutions. We used muffin fans to circulate the air over the solutions. Different salts give different humidities. It's not a process I would try to duplicate at home. I think the suggestion of a sling psychrometer is the best one for checking relative humidity.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:27 am 
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Mahogany
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I have found that the digital hygrometers I've bought seem to take a very long time to settle in on the RH. More than a day.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:41 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Brock you only need about a teaspoon of damp salt in a seal-able Tupperware or other plastic container. Put the damp salt in a drink bottle lid or what ever and place the salt filled lid and hygro in the container( plastic bag is ok, just as long as you can take a reading through the bag) and seal. Leave for 24hrs and check, if your hygro is sweet, it will read 75% RH. If it is out, you can re-calibrate, or just allow for the % difference. HERE is a link to check details.

Cheers

Kim


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:36 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Actually, Hesh, you are getting fairly consistent numbers. I think that the analog unit in that Woodcraft clock is a cheapie. So far as I know, the best--really the only high quality one on the market--is that German made unit LMI and maybe other sources sell. Not cheap.

Digital units will move out of calibration over time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:38 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Brock Poling]

Any thoughts on how to test a hygrometer to a known standard?

[/QUOTE]


Watch the 6 o'clock news for two or three days and compare your reading with theirs. Adjust if necessary.

Ron

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:53 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] Actually, Hesh, you are getting fairly consistent numbers. I think that the analog unit in that Woodcraft clock is a cheapie. So far as I know, the best--really the only high quality one on the market--is that German made unit LMI and maybe other sources sell. Not cheap.

Digital units will move out of calibration over time.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have found similar units on ebay for pretty cheap. I got one for $36 and another for $62. Far cheaper than LMI, but not new.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:08 am 
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Koa
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This thread has been quite enlightening. It got me curious enough to check among my various hygrometers, and predictably, there was a range. Starting from lowest to highest:











The last one is an interesting device, although I've always believed its accuracy to be suspect. I bought it at a yard sale several years ago for probably a buck. It has a small water reservoir in the bottom, which gets wicked up to the wet bulb on the right. There is a series of square boxes on the left side of the roller on top that show the difference in degrees between the two bulbs. You dial in that number and then read off the RH from the scale on the roller beneath the dry bulb temp shown above it. It's reading about 48% in the photo.

I have Hoadley's book, Understanding Wood. On page 143 it shows a sling psychrometer. Once I saw what it is, I realized the above device could closely approximate it, so I placed a fan in front of the hygrometer and let it blow on the wet bulb, until the temp stabilized. After doing this, it gave a reading of 42%, agreeing exactly with my indoor digital hygrometer. Hmmm . . . maybe it's not all that inaccurate after all.

I believe the differences shown between the two digitals is due more to the fact that the one reading 35% is located outside my shop door, whereas the one reading 42% is located about 15 ft away, inside my shop. Because I'm in my shop about 5 ft away from the second one, and perspiring slightly, I'm raising the RH a bit over ambient. There's also a lot of wood in here, with its bound moisture. However, I'm right next to the analog one and it is now reading 34%. Go figure. But then, I've never particularly trusted that one either, another yard sale special. At least it has an adjustment screw on the back, though.

Refering to Hoadley's book again, on p.113 is a chart showing equilibrium moisture content vs. RH @ 70F. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that builders like to have the equilibrium moisture content of their wood somewhere between 6% and 10%. On Hoadley's chart, that corresponds to a RH ranging between 35% and about 56%. And that corresponds to the line his chart shows, and not the acceptable range which extends above and below it. If one uses the acceptable range, the figure expands from 25% to about 64%. So, it would appear that maintaining a precise RH is not all that critical as long as it stays within the moisture content bounds one prefers.

Interestingly enough, the wood Hoadly used to establish this chart was white spruce. The caption of the chart emphasizes its importance to Hoadley. He writes "This may be the most important information in this book. Hang a copy of this graph on you shop wall and look at it every day. . ."

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:15 am 
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Koa
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Here is one I got on ebay awhile back. CALIBER III DIGITAL HYGROMETER 4 CIGAR HUMIDOR. I've read reviews that these are the best. I tested it with the Boveda One-Step Calibration bag that is found Here

It was right on. So if your hygrometer is small enough to fit in the bag, you can test it. This site has many different sized bags. These bags will last about 3 months, so you can test all of your hygrometers from just one bag. You just put your hygrometer in the bag for 2 days, and it should read 75% humidity after 2 days. If not, then it is not correct. Highly recommended!
Tracy


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:19 am 
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The last hygrometer I bought is an analogue German one, supposedly very good. It says in the instructions that it reads the humidity in the air by measuring how a human hair inside the unit swells or shrinks when the humidity changes.

The store where I bought it had a whole bunch of hygrometers, so I opened all the boxes on the shelf. Two of the good ones were off by 15 - 20 %, the rest of them were all within +/- 3 or 4 %. I took that as an indication that theses were accurate.

I have three digital ones, none of which can be calibrated, and I do not trust them; only one of them follows the analogue German one OK.

I don't think you can count on the local weather forecast to tell your specific humidity, it will vary quite a bit according to a number of factors (like topography, proximity to bodies of water and so on) even in a fairly small area.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:24 am 
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Koa
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Tracey...

That thing is CHEAP as well... I saw it for $20, I lost my Hygrometer in the move so I've been looking for a new one to replace it...

At that price I may get a couple to watch the humidity in the wood storage shed as well...

Good Info...

-Paul-

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:02 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Mea culpa...I said 100%. I meant to say 75%.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:36 am 
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Koa
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Actually JJ, I think your method might be off by just a little. I use a very similar tried and tested method to make sure the humidity in my humidor is just right. Salt when not saturated or dried out, will maintain a perfect 75% humidity. It works very much like the humidity crystals you put in your humidor. Here is the procedure:

Put some salt in the cap of a two liter pop bottle. Add several drops of water to form a paste - when you can turn the cap upside down and neither salt nor water comes out, you have the right mixture. Put the cap and your hygrometer in two ziploc bags with some air (don't try to squeeze all the air out of the bags). Let it sit for at least 8 hours (more is better). The hygrometer should read 75% (read through the bag - don't open it to read it). If it is off, remember by how much - this is how much to add or subtract from the reading to calibrate it.

One other thing, most analog hygrometers are set at the factory and only have a tolerance of +/- 10% which is why many hygrometers always read close to 50% even though it may be much drier, or more humid. Once you calibrate it, the readings should be a lot more accurate.

Cheers!

John


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:35 am 
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Koa
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Good job Hesh! I'll be checking back later to see pics. One thing just occurred to me, if that is a large freezer bag you're using it might take a little more salt/water mixture to bring it up to 75% humidity if it is really dry there.   I usually use the smaller sandwich ziplock bags with one inside the other after squeezing about 1/2 the air out. I'll be curious to see how long it takes to reach 75%.

Cheers!

John


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:46 am 
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Koa
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Paul and Hesh,
Yes, these are cheap, and small, so they fit in lots of different locations. It is interesting that my basement is always around 35 to 45% humidity, and upstairs ranges from 25 to 45% depending on weather. So my guitars stay in the basement where it is mostly constant.

I forgot to mention that those hygrometers have a little magnet on the back of them that allows you to just stick it to any piece of metal in the shop. Very handy! And I did lots of research on cigar forums to find out which hygrometer was the best, and this one always came up as the best for the money. It is usually 1 to 3% off max. Mine is right on! HERE is one on ebay now for $18.95. Hesh, look forward to seeing how your experiment progresses.
Tracytl50736238895.7458333333


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:29 am 
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Koa
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Ow!

So instead of bumping let's see some pics d00d!!

Iquiring minds want to know how your little test goes....

-Paul-

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