Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu May 01, 2025 1:02 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:39 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:43 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: United States
"my latest build" implies to me an affection for the "piece" because , at least for me, the building is more enjoyable than owning. But ignore me because I just got home from having a tooth pulled and I'm on some serious pain meds. I'm feeling as goofy as a sunbaked lizard so please pretend that I didn't post this.

Al


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:02 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
[QUOTE=rlabbe]
I.e. if you are going to tweak us for changing a word, we'll tweak you back for wanting it not to change.
[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. When a language no longer exhibits change, it has become a "dead" language. Like Latin and classical Greek.

English is not only alive, it is robust.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:27 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:53 am
Posts: 2104
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
First name: Anthony
Last Name: Zlahtic
City: Toronto
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=L. Presnall] [QUOTE=JBreault] I thought kerfing was Mario's beef... [/QUOTE]

Where is Mario these days anyway?    [/QUOTE]

He's busy with his current "builds"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:58 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Australia
[QUOTE=Robbie O'Brien] Try explaining to a foreigner that we first "cut a
tree down" and then "cut it up" to use it in the build.

15 years as a teacher of ESL
[/QUOTE]

Thats what makes ESL fun. You tend to learn from your students alot with
ESL.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:43 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:40 am
Posts: 600
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]

I think there is something impersonal and cold about calling a guitar you are making a 'build'--to my ear it takes an individual object of art and treats it as a generic, nondescript object. [/QUOTE]

I have trouble assigning the "art" title to an unfinished guitar in as much as an oil painting in progress isn't "art". Guess that would be a "paint" as opposed to a "build". Matter of fact, I rarely see any guitar as "art" simply because it's a guitar. It's really a tool for a musician to ply his trade with. A wrench to a mechanic in similar usage. Certainly extraordinary embellishments and decorations can elevate portions of a guitar to "art" status or the whole instrument, but rarely. Mere purchase of fine figured woods in and of itself does not require an artists perception nor does successful use of said wood without messing it up constitute "art" or even high skill, not to say high achievement skill levels aren't important to a succesful guitar build. The creation of those figures in a living tree might be considered skill of the highest level if one was to think that and worthy of wonder. The elevation of guitars (in general) to "art" status IMO could be interpreted as elitist.

I find myself more comfortable saying "piece" for any object that appears created for aesthetic appreciation. Kinda generic and non-offensive.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:45 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:58 pm
Posts: 2946
Location: United States
Howard: If somebody built an excellent guitar, driven by transcendant artistic inspiration, superb execution, one that was way above just about everything ever built in the history of luthiery, would you have a problem with somebody stating,

Man! You sure "Kleppered" that one"   

   Word mutability is a strength of English that I, in particular, appreciate!

[quote]Excellent point. When a language no longer exhibits change, it has become a "dead" language. Like Latin and classical Greek. [/quote]

Latin died! When did this happen? I never heard a thing!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:58 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
Billy, I would be, like, totally embarassed. Thanks.

Actually, I have learned that change is far slower in written languages than it is in those that are only spoken, and the great majority of languages are not written. Change has been very slow in English by comparison with these. For example, we can still understand Elizabethan English 400 years later. There are many languages that have changed so rapidly that present speakers could not understand someone who spoke that language 100 years ago.

I hear Latin phrases spoken regularly. And that's in California!

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:52 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:51 am
Posts: 3786
Location: Canada
Guitars as art - ever seen Laskin's Excaliber sword guitar, based on King Henry Knights of the round table - the guitar is mearly the canvas as a whole - with the hand holding the sword inlayed into the lower bout of the top, the cutaway is the moon, the bridge design is the handle of the sword and the FB acts as the blade. Most of Laskin's creations are considered art for the amount of inlay on them, but this one goes beyond the simpler (if thats possible to call them that) full headstock and FB inlays he is more famous for IMO.


_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:42 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:31 am
Posts: 113
Location: United States
It is interesting in Spanish between the latin american countries we can all communicate but regional differences lead to misunderstanding and some times the same word can be normal in one country while offensive in another. It's like a regional drift that is influenced by the mixture of people in a given region.

But everyone speaks the language of guitars...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:56 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]
Actually, I have learned that change is far slower in written languages than it is in those that are only spoken, and the great majority of languages are not written. Change has been very slow in English by comparison with these. For example, we can still understand Elizabethan English 400 years later. There are many languages that have changed so rapidly that present speakers could not understand someone who spoke that language 100 years ago.

I hear Latin phrases spoken regularly. And that's in California![/QUOTE]

As a student of linguistics, I've always been fascinated with language change. Here are a few tidbits that most people don't know:

A language is considered "living" when it is still being acquired as a first language by children. When this process stops, it becomes a "dead" language. This is why Latin and classical Greek are considered dead languages. They aren't being acquired by children as a first language anymore. Hebrew is an interesting example of a language that was "resurrected." The state of Israel made a conscious decision to have Hebrew taught to children as a first language, and now it is a living language once again. And as a result, one thing you can count on is Hebrew has begun to change again.

Many, many languages are in danger of becoming extinct. A good example of this is Taiwanese (also known as Min Nan, or the Southern Min dialect). In Taiwan, the official language is Mandarin Chinese. This is what most Taiwanese people speak now, and parents are "teaching" it to their young, even though their first language was probably Taiwanese. In recent years the Taiwanese government has become concerned about this, now requiring that Taiwanese be taught in schools, but this does not solve the problem. It is an endangered language because few Taiwanese children nowadays are learning it as a first language.

Just because a language is dead, does not mean it doesn't have value. In fact, one of the values of Latin is its dead status. It doesn't change, so it is safe to use Latin terms in science, medicine, literature, etc., with the secure knowledge that the term will mean the same as it did five hundred years ago and five hundred years in the future.

The vast bulk of language change is caused, in fact, by children as they acquire language. This is because they don't actually learn it by rote from their parents. They reinvent it, so to speak, and frequently experiment with new usages. I'm not really referring to slang, either -- although slang is certainly more prevalent among the young than older speakers of a language. I'm referring to fundamental grammatical shifts. (For example, children will routinely "regularize" irregular verbs by applying regular rules to them, such as using "taked" instead of "took.")

As for comparing "written" to "spoken" languages, an important point to understand is that a spoken language is always considered to be of primary importance, simply because it is spoken. If a language is written only, then by definition it is a dead language, which explains why it doesn't change.

Every language has its own "geneology" and every word has a history. We English speakers do not speak Elisabethan English anymore, but we can still understand it. Sort of. It is still considered "Modern English" (as opposed to the Middle English of Chaucer and the Old English of Beowolf fame). Even though Elisabethan English is considered to be early Modern English, many usages have changed in the past five hundred years. Probably one of the most important is pronunciation, caused by what is known as the Great English Vowel Shift. Interestingly enough, I have found, the vowel shift did not occur among the Scots dialects.

Oh well. More than you ever wanted to know, I'm thinking.

Best,

Michael
Michael McBroom38897.5006944444

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:09 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:58 pm
Posts: 2946
Location: United States
        The value of Latin is the ability to guess acccurately, many times, based on suffix/prefix, the meaning of a word. After two years of Latin, my English understanding "took off". Same for French and German, to an extent.

     There are so many rules for English because of it's very goofed up structure. I.E. spelling, There are so many spelling rules that are entirely arbitary, due to this, instead of changing the spelling itself.

     Most of the difficulty in learning English is at root, this spelling, as well as sentence structure.

    English ability to change and accept change easily makes it a good base for scientific communication, but not the language itself.


_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:08 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
Agreed. Any language, theoretically at least, is capable of expressing any thought or concept. This is a truism in Linguistics. But in order for these concepts to be expressed, frequently borrowings from other languages occur (hehe, there's another nominalized verb for you). English has a long history of borrowing from other languages. But it is by no means somehow unique in this behavior. In Japanese, for example, fully half of all word roots come from Chinese, and modern Japanese is full of borrowings from European languages, especially English.

English is actually a Germanic language, so the German similarities are usually roots that English shares with modern German.    In addition to wide borrowings from Latin and Greek (mostly as root and affix morphemes), and French following the Norman Conquest, English has also borrowed a fair number of words from Dutch, native American languages, even Chinese and Japanese.

Regarding English spelling peculiarities, the vast number of them are due to changes in pronunciation. English has not undergone any major revisions in spelling in five hundred years or so. Interestingly enough, many folks -- especially historical linguists -- are opposed to spelling revisions in their languages, because doing so disguises the origins of the words. As I wrote above, every word has a history. Changing its spelling hides the history.

As a linguist, I observe language usage; I don't judge the usages. Hehe, regarding spellings, if it were up to me, I'd toss out the Roman alphabet entirely, and replace it with this one:



I'd probably be lynched, though.

Best,

Michael


_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:34 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Billy T] Howard: If somebody built an excellent guitar, driven by transcendant artistic inspiration, superb execution, one that was way above just about everything ever built in the history of luthiery, would you have a problem with somebody stating,

Man! You sure "Kleppered" that one"    [/QUOTE]
Or, if you've just finished building the best instrument you've ever seen, with exceptional attention to detail, innovative design and impeccable craftsmanship, and somebody brings in one of Howard's guitars...

YOU'VE BEEN "KLEPPERED"!!!


There's a word in the English language that (as nearly as I can determine) is the only one that has completely opposing meanings:

Cleave: adhere; stick; cling
Cleave: come apart; divide; split

Now, THAT'S gotta drive ESL students nuts!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:43 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Michael McBroom]I'd probably be lynched, though. [/QUOTE]
As someone who has spent his life carefully differentiating the sound of vowels within words, I'd be carrying the rope! "in-tuh-nesh-nuhl", indeed!    CarltonM38897.7400347222


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:26 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
Welp, I just borrowed that graphic, I didn't write the IPA. Obviously, somebody with a British accent did. But that's what makes the IPA cool. You can spot a person's accent, and possibly their dialect, by the characters they use.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:52 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:19 pm
Posts: 1051
Location: United States
Yo...dis thread is dope

And dat latest bild of yours is phat

It has got to sound krunk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:58 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Amherst, NH USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Fish could be spelled GHOTI.
GH as in enouGH
O as in wOmen
ti as in acTIon

Guitar terminology is quite unsettled. The top is usually called the top but the other side is called the back and not the bottom. I've heard the word bottom to refer to the tail which is where the end pin goes. The sound hole is called the sound hole even though most of the sound comes from the lower bout of the top. The neck block is also called the heel block. The sides are also called the rims. The neck seems to be just called the neck. The head stock is called the head stock and rarely just the head. On a flat top the strings run over the saddle but on an arch top they run over the bridge. Though some arch tops have a saddle in their bridge. But they also may have a saddle which is a piece of reinforcement that the cords of the tail piece rub against as they connect the tail piece to the body. So some arch tops have two saddles doing completely different functions. Steel string guitars have pick-guards while flaminco guitars have strike plates. A tuner is either a machine to create or check a reference pitch or a machine for adjusting the tightness of the string. A fretboard is a fingerboard but a fingerboard may not be a fretboard.

As an aside: The Hills brothers, who knew as much about violins as anybody refered to the wood on the top of a violin as pine. This reflects something that I remember from when I was a child. The word pine was used to mean any conifer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:25 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:02 am
Posts: 2351
Location: Canada
First name: Bob
Last Name: Garrish
City: Toronto
State: Ontario
Country: Canada
Status: Professional
Ooh, a linguist! I've always had an interest in linguistics. I think it might be the mathematician thing. In math every word has one meaning in a given context and after spending all day talking mathematics it's always a little strange for the first few minutes when you've got to interpret what people are saying again.

What do you call something like mathematics, where the language is specifically tailored for a certain use? I can't talk about my car with mathematics, but I can form an argument with a complete lack of ambiguity.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:48 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
Hi Bob,

Good question, and since I'm assuming it was directed at me, I guess I should try to answer. Honestly an immediate answer didn't come to mind, but knowing how the minds of academics (especially of the linguistic variety) all to often work, I figured there had to be a term. I found this one at wikipedia. Mathematics does seem to fit the monicker of a formal language, since one of its characteristics is an intentional attempt to disambiguate through the use of specific term definitions and syntax.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:49 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:58 pm
Posts: 2946
Location: United States
[quote]disambiguate[/quote]

My! My! My! Rather than use words like that, I'd use one of these !

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:22 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States
Wouldn't that be an "ambiguectomy"?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com