Official Luthiers Forum!

I hope this isn't OT for this forum. If it is, feel free to delete this post, Lance or Brock, and perhaps I can post it over at the OT forum.

I've grown weary waiting for my website guy to put together a site for me, so I just decided to do it myself. I figure a year is long enough. I'm somewhat HTML conversant, so it hasn't been too much of a struggle. But it hasn't been particularly fun, either.

Right now I have the main page up at mcbroomguitars.com. The menu selections don't work yet, and actually little of the content is set in stone at this point.

I do kinda like the menu buttons, though. I made 'em myself, using a piece of cocobolo for the buttons' image. I'm not all that thrilled about the photos of the guitars, though. I plan to replace them with better ones that don't show my ratty old back yard, but they'll do for now.

I composed the site template using Mozilla's built-in Composer. It looks okay in Mozilla, but I just checked it with IE and it looks like I've got some issues with a couple of the captions. I'll worry about them tomorrow.

Any suggestions you might care to offer are welcome. I'm a bit frazzled at this point, and no longer thinking all that clearly, so I won't mind constructive input.

Best,

Michael
Michael McBroom38913.9763773148

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Michael, i'm not a good person to critique your website, i never made one and i admire for constructing this page by yourself, your choice of buttons is pretty and i love to see your instruments pics and the size of the pics is perfect! Way to go Monsieur Michael!

Michael--I like it. Simple, straightforward, and loads quickly. Looking forward to working buttons!

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Michael,
I have a few suggestions...keep in mind these are just opinions. I am
hoping within a year to do lutherie full-time - so I have been developing
my website for the last few months.

I have found that I was way to verbose at the beginning. You want to pick
out some distinctive features of your guitars and talk about those
specifically. I have had several folks who don't know much about guitars
critique my website and I have found it very helpful. I think keeping the
thoughts about build philosophy, goals, etc... as simple and short as
possible is a very important. You want people to glance at your website
and know exactly what they are looking at and what links to hit for
various information. As it stands now, I think some folks would feel a bit
overwhelmed upon first impression.

So here is what I would change. All the writing on the homepage...I would
move it to a "Build Philosophy/History" page. Let people know how you
started building, what your goals are, the tone you are after, etc...

I would let that first page be a strictly News/Updates page.

Instead of "Design", I would have a "Features" page that talks about the
various unique thinks you do - such as that awesome 8-string!!!

You need a photo gallery - you have beautiful instruments and you want
some artistic photos. I might be in the minority - but I don't like the
"Photo Shoot" look most luthiers do...a beautiful guitar needs some
beautiful scenery -just make sure it doesn't distract from your guitars.

I would also have a workshop page of various tools and jigs - make it
look as cool and impressive as possible. People love seeing workshops
and tools.

The more photos the better. I highly recommend finding some freeware/
shareware program that will put an "edge" around your photos. It blends
the photos into your website and makes it look more professional.

Here is my website (still very much a work in progress)...it might give you
a few ideas and let you know which design perspective I am coming from.

Fay Guitars

If you have a mac...I use a very inexpensive program that is incredibly
user-friendly. Setting up my website has been absolutely mindless -
which is perfect for someone of my brother's intellect (Any chance I get
to insult my brother, I take it ). Let me know if I could be of any help
to you. Beautiful guitars by the way.

The website looks great thus far tho'.

Over and Out,
Simon
SimonF38914.1393171296

Michael: I like what you have done, and the direction that you are going. Your work reminds me that My website is in serious need of updating.

Al

Well it's a lot better than mine!

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Michael,

I think Simon has some good points for you. But, I really enjoyed reading your opening page, and your very honest and straight-forward thoughts. I hope you won't trim that down too much. Also, I think your 10 string work should be highlighted more. It is an uncommon talent an ability you have developed building 10 string instruments, and I think it deserves top billing. Also, post some pictures of performers playing your istruments, with a link to their website. That is good for you, and good for them. Sound clips would be a great addition too.

I really like it!

Jeff

[QUOTE=SimonF]
Here is my website (still very much a work in progress)...it might give you
a few ideas and let you know which design perspective I am coming from.

Fay Guitars

If you have a mac...I use a very inexpensive program that is incredibly
user-friendly. Setting up my website has been absolutely mindless -
which is perfect for someone of my brother's intellect (Any chance I get
to insult my brother, I take it ). Let me know if I could be of any help
to you. Beautiful guitars by the way.

The website looks great thus far tho'.

Over and Out,
Simon
[/QUOTE]

Simon

I've got a Mac also - could you let us know what program you used to create the website?

I like the elegant look of it.

Thanks

Phil

I find white text on a blue background hard to read.

But what is just about impossible to read is blue links on a blue background, such as here:

http://mcbroomguitars.com/models.html

What I'm going to say next is going to sound mean, but I hope you realize I intend only helpful criticism.

The website feels like it was designed by an amateur. Colors are a bit garish, the fonts don't relate in any way, the look of the buttons are completely different than the rest of the site, and the photos are unprofessional (lots of extraneous detail in the vegetation), poorly cropped, and haphazardly placed on the page. They don't line up, they are different sizes, and they are in two entirely different styles (close up with black background, full body shot shot outside). It looks like you just took some random photos, put them on the page, and let the html sort out where they lined up. It's also clear you are not white balancing correctly, as the color of cedar in the upper left hand side and the Marlow guitar are completely different. Finally, when you click on "Models", note that the titles and the photos shift. If you have consistant information on multiple pages, they should stay in the same position.

In comparison, look at Jeffery Elliot's site. I'm not gaga about everything on that site, but it has a lot going for it: http://www.elliottguitars.com/

Okay, the initial page is short. You don't have to scroll to read it. There's not a lot of pictures unrelated to the text on the page. All the fonts work together aesthetically. All the colors work together harmoniously (link colors close to "guitars" color, which blends well with "Jeffery Eliot"). The front page tells you a lot. What he is trying to achieve, how to mail him, how to call him, how long he has been building guitars, even what he looks like.

If you go to his gallery, it is again designed well (though I dislike that he opens a new browser window when you click on a link. If I want a new window to open, I'll open it myself). Again, all the colors work together, they are soothing and professional, and you don't have to worry about eye fatigue. I'm not gaga about his black on white text, but his photos are professional.


Try to think of your website as a brochure. Would you print a brochure in electric blue, and then put random rectangles with wood grain on it? Would you not line up your photos? Would you make them all different sizes? Would you not have borders on the photos, or blend them into the background (ie. white background of photo blends into white background of the page)?

I just picked up a random magazine to confirm what I just wrote. Every ad with multiple photos either has a transparent background, or has some kind of border around the photo. Photos are symmetrically placed: in a line, in a semicircle, left, then right, etc. Some kind of organization. Multiple fonts are used. If a dark background is used, then the fonts are big so you can read them. If light, the fonts are smaller.

Think about how your eye flows around a page, and what will draw attention. Honestly, the first thing I did is scroll down to look at the pictures, and then ended up reading your long text from about the midpoint. I never even realized that I missed two paragraphs until just now. pictures-links-more pictures-text-more pictures: there's no clear way to scan your page, and I need to scroll up and down to see it all. I'm bound to miss something, and not really get the point. You're trying give me a way to navigate, to show me all the different models you build, describe your current building techniques, and give a history of how you started out all on one page. Try to tell a story, and give the person an easy way to get the information that is important to her.

Having read all your text, something doesn't ring true to me. In your first paragraph you say you "seldom" justified paying for a concert class instrument, which I read as sometimes you did pay for one. But then in the next paragraph you state you owned guitars in the 1-2.5K range. Now, maybe you bought them 20 years ago, but these days that is the factory guitar range. 5K+ is concert class. So, who are you competing with: factory guitars or hand made builders? It's not good to put unanswered questions into a person's mind. It kinds of reads as "better sounding than a 1K factory guitar, but unfortunately it doesn't look as good" :)

But then in the next paragraph you are comparing yourself favorably to Hauser, Torres, etc. I'll be honest - this is where my mind said "bull patties". Now, you may in fact be building better guitars than Torres; doing so would put you in the top 3 or so contemporary builders of the world. If that's the case, you shouldn't even be mentioning 1K factory guitars above, because that's where I was placing you - better sounding than a factory guitar, but maybe not as good looking. If you are really building at that high level, then you need endorsements from the Romeros, etc., and to drop any mention of factory guitars.


Finally, a nit: when you say you have a goal, that implies you haven't achieved it yet. Instead of "My goal: to build..." how about just "Quality Instruments at an Affordable Price"

-----
I feel that my message probably really beat on you, but I wanted to give an honest appraisal of how I reacted to your page. I genuinely want to help make the page better, not disparage you - I hope that came across.

Roger

Roger,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughtful critique. I will take everything you wrote under consideration, and in fact, I will print out your response to keep it handy as I continue to develop the site.

Just to be clear on a couple of points however, which I did mention at the outset: nothing at the site is set in stone, including the text. As I also pointed out, the photos will be replaced when I have the time to shoot some better ones. And as I also mentioned, I'm just barely conversant with HTML and having to do this because the guy who is supposed to hasn't done a thing yet, and I'm tired of waiting. It's a lot harder than it looks to get elements to align themselves across and down a page, tables or no.

The main thing I want to accomplish right now is to finish what I started, then dump it into my website guy's lap, and prepare to wait another year for him to get around to it. In the meantime, I'll do what I can to improve it as time permits.

Oh, regarding my building technique compared to Torres and Hauser, I meant what I wrote. Specifically I have abandoned the 7-fan soundboard bracing pattern, as innovated by Torres and used by Hauser and many others, because I like the sound of mine better.   Simple as that, really.

Best,

Michael
Michael McBroom38915.6588078704

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Phil,
I use a program called RapidWeaver. It is unique in that it will enable you
to design a nice looking website with very little knowledge. And more
importantly, if you know a little HTML and some CSS (which I don't) you
can do some amazing things.

The program works on the basis of Themes. You can buy various
different themes that change the look of your website. However, there is
a tremendous amount of variability with the themes and there are a
number of design business that keep coming out with really nice looking
stuff.

The best thing is that it interfaces beautifully with iPhoto an the other
iApps.

It is a great inexpensive program ($30)...I highly recommend it.

--
SimonSimonF38915.9275810185

The cool thing is that you are on-line.

I had the same reaction about the home page. I thought it was very relevant but a little overwhelming for saying hello for the first time.

The question is what will draw folks in, a well designed web page makes me want to check the whole thing out, so I eventually read it all, or come back a few times...

I guess I'm just as unsophisticated as you, Michael, because I like the natural background to the photos and I do that kind of thing myself on my website. When I see beautiful studio-shot photos on someone's website it makes me think they must be overcharging for their guitars to be able to afford a professional photo shoot. Haven't you ever listened to a record and thought, "That's nice but it's over-produced"?

The way I look at it, I don't want a fancy website that people are going to be tempted to spend hours looking at. If they want entertainment thay can come and see one of the bands I'm in.

The purpose of the website is to sell my instruments and what I want is for people who are actually interested in buying one to be able to find out as much information as they can about the model they are interested in. The chances are they are already looking for a guitar so I don't have to tempt them into exploring the site - what they want is to be able to get to the essential information as quickly and easily as possible. It seems to work for me, even though my website is very old-fashioned in design and needs an overhaul - it was done in the days when most people didn't have 1024x768 screens.

My comment would be that you should keep the captions on page 1 as simple as possible - you'll be repeating the information about woods and options on the other pages so you don't need it on page one. People will be deciding whether they are interested enough to look further on the basis of the pictures, not the descriptions.

_________________
Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

1.) If it’s hard to read, people won’t read it. Reversed type (light text on dark background) is much more difficult to read for folks with normal eyes. Depending upon your color choices, reversed type will be impossible for some folks to read.

2.) Usually, (but not always) the most important thing on the page should also be the biggest element and the first thing the viewer sees.

3.) Simon is right about moving the philosophy to a secondary page and replacing it with “the latest news.” If you want to include it on the home page, distill the essence of it down to a single, short declarative sentence with a link to the whole enchilada.

4.) Get yourself some advanced html editing software such as Adobe Go Live! or Microsoft FrontPage to help you with site management. Otherwise the requirements of managing your site will soon cut into your building time and drive you crazy. (For some of us, myself included, that’s not a long drive.)

I think you’re off to a great start. My first web pages were made using a built-in browser editor with some additional hand-coding and they were nowhere near as sophisticated as yours.

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D..

Thanks guys,

All good suggestions. I'm gonna add them to the print-out for easy reference as I go back over the site for a thorough edit.

Today, weather permitting, I plan to reshoot most of the photos. I don't have space inside my cramped old house to do the work inside, so I'll be rigging up a background in open shade outdoors.

LG, I appreciate your comments regarding using a natural setting for photos. Unfortunately, the only halfway decent place around here to shoot them was lit with very bright sunlight, giving the photos a harsh look. Today, it is overcast, which will result in a dull, unsaturated look, although fill-flash will probably bring out some color saturation. Still, I'm not happy with the background, so I'm going to give it a try with a cloth background instead.

Dennis, all I have used for this site so far has been Mozilla's built-in HTML editor, supplemented by a bit of hand-coding. It's been a lot of work getting the tables to behave properly. I guess that's why CSS style sheets have become so popular. Years ago, I bought a copy of Hot Metal 3.0 and hated it. Ended up hand-coding most of what it would (and wouldn't) do. I've been resisting the temptation to buy another product, mostly because I don't like their prices.

I'll try the background and text both ways. I guess I'm just funny that way. I always liked the black screen and white text back in the days of using DOS-based WordPerfect, and I still prefer this. To soften the contrast somewhat with the site, however, I'm using dark blue as a background and the text is not white, but a light gray color. White appeared too harsh, but maybe that is what I should use with a dark background to maximize contrast -- if I stay with it, that is. I just really did not want to go with a straight white background, mainly. Too plain, I guess.

Simon, is RapidWeaver a Mac product? Is it available for the PC?

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Michael,
Some of this advice has seemed a bit hard-hiting. Take it for what it is -
just opinions and this is your guitar business and your style - so
ultimately, go with what you like - it is good to do things differently. I
think you are well on your way to having a very nice website.

Unfortunately, the Rapidweaver program is Mac only. If you are ever in
the market for a new computer - the new Macs can run Windows natively.
In my opinion, things music/media, internet, and design are where Macs
excel. The software works so well with the mac OS.

Best of luck,
SimonSimonF38917.0367939815

Hey Simon,

Is it possible to use a scroll wheel and right click with the Mac yet?

BTW, I'm finished with round one of the website coding. At least all the menu selections and links work. Think I'm gonna take a break and go make some sawdust.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

[QUOTE=LouisianaGrey]The way I look at it, I don't want a fancy website
that people are going to be tempted to spend hours looking at. If they
want entertainment thay can come and see one of the bands I'm in.

The purpose of the website is to sell my instruments and what I want is
for people who are actually interested in buying one to be able to find out
as much information as they can about the model they are interested in.
[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I completely disagree. A mediocre site suggests
mediocre guitars. All it communicates is that your work is middle of the
road and you have absolutely nothing to add over your competition.

There's a reason we consumers aren't waiting with baited breath for that
extra special spreadsheet to come our way.

[QUOTE=Michael McBroom]Is it possible to use a scroll wheel and right
click with the Mac yet?[/QUOTE]

Wheel and right click are working for me in OSX 10.4.

"With all due respect, I completely disagree. A mediocre site suggests mediocre guitars."

Who said anything about mediocre? Or do I assume that, since you used the word first, you think my website is mediocre and my guitars have nothing to add over the competition? In that case I would have to disagree with you, and my order book seems to bear me out.

_________________
Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

I haven't seen your site, but what you described is mediocre. You wrote
that you don't want a fancy design, you don't want artistic photography,
you don't want people to spend time browsing; you just want them to
have the facts. Those are the ingredients for a mediocre presentation.      

Disclaimer: Opinion humbly offered,not directing this at anyone's particular site

For someone that doesn't already know anything about you that finds you on the web, your site is all they have to go on. If your website uses poor photos, has a clumsy layout, contains grammatical errors and/or text that doesn't make sense on the first read... it "says" to the viewer that you're not the type who really pays attention to details or aesthetics. Worse yet, it can paint you as a do-it-yourselfer rather than a professional. That may be far from the truth when it comes to your instruments, but then how would a visitor to your site know that?

In the end, I'm guessing word of mouth is the most effective marketing anyway, so a backlog of orders doesn't necessarily indicate an effective website (or maybe even a need for one?).

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

"what you described is mediocre"
I'm sorry, James, I don't think what I described was mediocre. I've given and been on the receiving end of many presentations in my former business life and I know that slick and fancy does not always equate with useful. I've seen many smart presentations (and websites) with very little useful or meaningful content and I'd rather have something that's to the point and communicates the information I'm looking for.

"For someone that doesn't already know anything about you that finds you on the web, your site is all they have to go on."
I couldn't agree more, Jon. I get particularly irritated by poorly designed websites with illogical navigation and I certainly believe in removing all errors of spelling, grammar etc. I didn't suggest that the site should be bad, only that it needn't be fancy. Not everyone has Macromedia Flash, and not everyone wants music played at them when they look at someone's site (they may be surfing in the office ), and not everyone is impressed by "artistic" layouts and expensive photography.

I live on a small island, so almost all of my orders (from mainland Britain, Europe and the USA) have come via my website. Word of mouth doesn't really come into it other than for repeat orders.

_________________
Pete
http://www.petewoodmanguitars.com

Fair enough. I think what you described is mediocre but we can agree to
disagree.

I layed this out last night with hopes of getting in the swap meet before
things close. It's entirely flash and php based, loads way faster than a
standard html site, and has a file size about as a large as a typical
thumbnail image.

http://
www.languagepool.net/html/

The navigation is fast and intuitive because I gave consideration to
design. Good design simply makes more attractive AND more
usable websites. My experience has been that websites that put all their
attention on the inforation have slow usability because you have to read a
paragraph just to know where to go. I never ever want to try engaging
people by asking them to read endlessly.James Orr38917.7344907407