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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:49 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Certainly, there are guitars that sell for $20k and up.... even some very very good ones...

And, there seems to be a psychology to pricing them... just look at Jeff Tragott's stratospheric prices. I suspect the thinking goes... "I am really busy... I need to triple my prices to slow down the orders..." Then the buying public says "Oh SH&%, if I ever had dreams of buying a [insert name of luthier here] I better order it now before they get so expensive that I could NEVER own one." and new orders come rushing in. I know it is whacked, but that can occassionally be a marketing reality.

The thing that puzzled me was that here is someone I have not heard of (which I suppose doesn't say a LOT... but I try to keep my ear to the ground) who is trying to move product at $30k each + he has some kind of weird new age angle on selling instruments...

Again, he might be a great luthier... but that kind of took the wind out of me when I saw his prices.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:52 am 
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Walnut
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John, I knew that, which is why I returned that thar wink. Sorry about Edith, she is a bit overwhelming at times

Edith, please stop doing this to me in public dear. You're gonna give me a bad name on yet another list, so please stop it!

Elmer


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:53 pm 
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Cocobolo
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heh, I deleted most of the snark from my post, thanks for making up for it guys. It's pretty likely I'll never sell a guitar, but if I could get even $15k each, I'd quit my day job tomorrow.

There is definitely something to be said for asking very high prices for a guitar, and I'm sure it works for some. I liked his headstock design. Would say it's inspired by archtops. He seems to do a lot of repair, so that's probably where the money is coming from.

The one thing that bothered me is that he does appear to be trying to make a reputation off of another luthier's reputation when he didn't really earn it by working for that luthier.   I'm going to see if I can visit Bob Benedetto one afternoon.

I'd be interested to see that bracing pattern though.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:07 am 
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Cocobolo
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Heck, he touts having a *dream* with D'Aquisto in it.

Ya, I'll pay 30K for a guitar braced on a dream.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:50 am 
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Cocobolo
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As a great man once said "You can't cheat an honest man; never give a sucker an even break." Sounds like a motto said luthier might inscribe on his labels.

Now, who is going to waste time cutting wood under a blue moon with a naked virgin dancing around? Come on, guys, you know what a dwindling resource dancing, naked virgins are!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:07 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Here's a deal for ya...

I'll sell you every guitar I've made so far (about 15) for that 30K.

It'll clear out the house, make my wife happy and give me a reason to call up the Zootman.

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Rector Guitars


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:21 am 
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Cocobolo
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[QUOTE=Mario] Sure, but Olson, Manzer, and the like don't have to make up marketing BS to sell theirs. I doubt he's selling any at all at anything near that price.

Buyers are well aware of BS when they see it. There may be a well meaning millionaire's wife out there shopping for a gift for her guitar-playing multi-millionaire husband, I guess, who can get fooled by the BS and buy one, but, ummm, I bet she's rare....[/QUOTE]

Hi Mario,

I must respectfully disagree. Having been in sales a marketing, for nearly 30 years, I can attest that Buyers are ANYTHING but well aware of what they are buying.

Go to any upscale boutique in any upscale mall. Need I say more?...

(Sharper Image comes to mind as a start)

Regards, Steve Brown


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:38 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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That is what I was saying earlier... there is a psychology to pricing. Sometimes RAISING your prices makes things sell better.

I see no harm in it on the level that not everyone goes for the ultra high level "brand". Is there any reason an Armani t-shirt sells for $120? Purely for the t-shirt value -- no. However from an image POV -- Yes. The owner feels exclusive when he buys it, wears it, and shows it to his friends.

There is a very cool marketing study called the VALS (Values and Lifestyles Survey) that goes into great detail about what motivates consumers.... it is facinating.

I know it is odd that this phenomonon exists, but it IS a marketing reality. People are motivated by a whole host of factors -- not just quality vs. price.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:47 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Well in that case, I'll up my price to 300K instead of the paltry 30K I offered earlier.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:07 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:11 am 
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Cocobolo
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[QUOTE=Dave Rector] Well in that case, I'll up my price to 300K instead of the paltry 30K I offered earlier. [/QUOTE] Oh, good Lord, I need that guitar now!!! The check is in the mail.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:20 am 
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Koa
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Hey Everyone,

I think there is truth to what Brock is saying. In my other hobby, discus fish breeding (it is a tropical South American fish popular in the fish keeping hobby), in which I actually have a lot of experience, I have encountered this many times. A lot of the time the attitude from buyers is, "That price is pretty low, there must be something wrong with it, or it is poor quality." Of course there is a certain percentage looking for an incredible deal or bargain.

But, many times they will not jump in and commit to a purchase until they see your prices start to rise! Then they start to see that good deal fading, and figure it is now or never.

Jeff


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:39 am 
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Koa
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I think those of you who have passed the "novice" stage are, by and large, selling yourself short on pricing.

Now that's not to say that the Circle of Sound is worth $30k. $30k is crazy. But there are some experienced luthiers selling "basic" model guitars in the $2500-$2700 range, which is equally crazy (albeit in the opposite direction). Consider that an HD-28 is going for $2300 street price. Some experienced builders are selling a "basic" model of similar design for just a couple hundred more than that, even though the level of time, attention and craftsmanship that go into your guitars (and perhaps even quality of materials) is above what you see in an HD-28. Now, if you're just getting started, that's fine. But at some point (be it a few dozen guitars or a hundred or whatever) you have achieved a level of craftsmanship at which buyers will and should pay more.

Now, you may keep your prices deflated because "I don't have the Martin name." Well, buck up.    Any buyer who is interested in your guitars is not buying based upon a big factory name. By definition, anyone interested in your guitars considers it an advantage, not a detriment, to have a handmade guitar by a fine craftsman, which by definition you can't get at a big factory. A player who is interested in a handmade guitar by an experienced craftsman will expect to pay (and be willing to pay) a significant premium over what he would pay for a similarly designed factory instrument.

IMHO, the reason many experienced luthiers are not charging more is simply a question of self-confidence, doubting whether they would get enough orders to stay busy. I and my partners in my "day job" business go through the same thing each year. Every year, we force ourselves to raise our prices. We look at what we offer, we look at what our competition is charging, and all indicators tell us we need to raise prices significantly. And yet every year, we wring our hands over it worrying whether our clients will stay with us. Invariably, we raise our prices enough that we lose sleep worrying about it. Invariably, our clients stick with us and feel they are getting good value. And when all is said and done, each year we look at our prices and realize we are still a great bargain for people who are looking for what we have to offer.

Unfortunately, as long as the best builders are willing to sell themselves short, that forces everyone's prices down. That doesn't mean you all should start charging $30k. But every January, you should force yourself to raise your prices whether you think you need to or not. Inflation alone warrants it at least a $100/instrument increase per year. The fact that you have another year's experience and reputation under your belt warrants a significant increase over that. The scariest part is convincing yourself that you are worth it. $30k is too much. But whatever you are charging now is probably too little.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:55 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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In the UK the price for a good base custom SS guitar, using mahogany or Indian rosewood and a sitka or WRC top would be about ?2500 ($4750). Start adding more exotic woods or MOP/abalone purfling and the price soon goes to $5-6000+. It has always amazed me how little you guys charge for your guitars. It would be cheaper for me to fly out twice to one of you guys for a guitar than buy here at home.

Colin Colin S38434.4977314815

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:21 am 
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Come on out Colin, What d'ya want, I got some nice mahogany!

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:41 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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[QUOTE=Jeff Doty] Hey Everyone,

I think there is truth to what Brock is saying. In my other hobby, discus fish breeding (it is a tropical South American fish popular in the fish keeping hobby), in which I actually have a lot of experience, I have encountered this many times. A lot of the time the attitude from buyers is, "That price is pretty low, there must be something wrong with it, or it is poor quality." Of course there is a certain percentage looking for an incredible deal or bargain.

But, many times they will not jump in and commit to a purchase until they see your prices start to rise! Then they start to see that good deal fading, and figure it is now or never.

Jeff[/QUOTE] Jeff, I rase and breed Koi


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:52 am 
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[QUOTE=John How] Come on out Colin, What d'ya want, I got some nice mahogany![/QUOTE]

And for your second trip, come over here to East Texas! Colin, I've got a real curly set of Cuban that would make a great guitar for your fleet.

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http://www.stephenkinnaird.com


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:10 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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I keep my prices deflated major time. However I do it for a good reason, at least in my mind. I live in area with a limited market. That is not to say that there is no market just some what limited. When I decided to build for sell made a decision to keep my pricing very low. I make enough on basic non-exotic guitars to pay for material x2 and a bit extra to help finance tools and tooling as I go. For example I sell an Om14 3A Sitka top. 2A IRW back and sides, Curly Maple binding, one piece Mahogany neck, Grover’s and a case No extra appointments for $800. By doing so I did not priced my self out of the student market in this area. For the first three years this allowed me to build and build up tooling. Now when I build a custom exotic that is a different story. I get from 2k-3.5k depending on the specifications. I also do a good bit of inlay work and I make good money on it.
Now that I have made some what of a name locally I am getting more custom build with exotic or high end woods. So I feel that my decision to keep prices low on basics got me off the ground and keeps me in the studentand non-professional market around here.
MichaelP38434.5639930556


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:14 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I certainly don't think that is a bad way to do it. You put thought into it and that is what you chose to do. That works for me....

but... what would they have bought if they didn't buy a guitar from you? What would "that" guitar have cost? Would they pay that much to buy one of yours?

I am not sure there are right or wrong answers to these questions... and again, I am not critisizing your approach... but I do find the subject facinating.

I am entirely convinced that pricing has very little to do with the quality vs. cost equation. I think it is about "brand". Certainly you have to deliver the goods at any price, but I would bet money on the fact that a 12k guitar is not much (if any) better than a 6k guitar. The differece will be the reputation of the builder.




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Brock Poling
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http://www.polingguitars.com


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:31 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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Brock,
I find it fascinating as well, and I agree name recognition is key if you want a premium price.

I can on one account anyway answer you question as to what would have they bought, and how much would have they paid. One of my very early commissions was for a OM14 IRW, Sitka, Curly Maple binding. They were debating on a Taylor 414 in Ovangkol for $1150 but wanted Rosewood. They inquired Taylor to find out if the could get it in Rosewood. They could at a premium of an extra $350 plus shipping from the custom shop and a delivery of six months. I had a shell in progress at the time that I offered. So they took mine at $800 This was a gift for a local teen that played in a garage band and high school gigs. He was disappointed that Mom did not buy the Taylor at the time. He is now one of the local favorite soloist in town. As well as my first repeat client. His second was a dreadnought, same wood combo except 4A IRW and name inlay on the fret board.

What amazed me was that the guitar that I built, in his eyes anyway compared favorably. However at that point I barley had any idea as to what I was doing right, more less what I was doing wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Cocobolo
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This is one area where I have to agree with Mario. If there's one thing that grinds me, it's when sales promotions insult my intelligence as a consumer. "Well, if they said so, then it must be true and that's good enough for me!" Darin Spayd38434.9552777778

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:54 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Darin is sorry. Darin meant to say that this is one area where Darin has to agree with Mario. If there's one thing that grinds Darin, it's when sales promotions insult Darin's intelligence as a consumer.

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DES - Shepherd, MI


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:24 am 
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Koa
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] [QUOTE=John How] Come on out Colin, What d'ya want, I got some nice mahogany![/QUOTE]

And for your second trip, come over here to East Texas! Colin, I've got a real curly set of Cuban that would make a great guitar for your fleet. [/QUOTE]

Yes indeed, and when you tire of East Texas you can come to the deep south and ruin your British accent by picking up a "charming" southern drawl and eat some fried green tomatoes. (and talk guitars with the other Kinnaird brother. I've got some mahogany too)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:02 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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hey colin

if you can get that virgin out in the woods, naked, and are still thinking about cutting down trees, maybe you had best start wearing a respirator while finishing and gluing... your brain is getting .............. fried!

michael mcclain


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:24 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I agree...   

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