Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Fri May 16, 2025 5:17 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:23 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England
That's interesting Tony, a bunch of us some years ago did a fair bit of experimentation with brace profiles, scalloped, parabolic and various hybrid systems. We didn't much like the scalloped X / parabolic tones, but did like the opposite of parabolic X and scallped tones! I put this thread up a couple of years ago.

Brace prolfiles

I've refined it a bit since then and mainly just use the parabolics now as they suit my playing style.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:04 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:51 am
Posts: 3786
Location: Canada
Right on Colin .. just remember, thats Bob's idea of good tone, and he has been putting out his own guitars for what 30 years .. it probably just sounded better that day, he never tried the other way round I dont think !!! Mine have always been tapered/parabolic in nature, and I like what they sound like, but thats me. I had a guy once tell me he thought my guitars were good, but this other maker he (and turns out I) knew made much better ones .. well I have played a bunch of this guys guitars and I wouldnt give you 20 bucks for any of them - well OK, the braz ones I would take and fix up !!!!

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:44 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Dave White] ...use of scalloped bracing..."why" it was introduced?[/QUOTE]
I've always suspected that it was a result of compensating for too-wide, too-heavy braces. Somebody discovered that the guitar sounded better with some of that mass removed. People have learned since how to use that shaping for a specific sound, but I still think it seems backward to put in too much mass initially, and then remove some of it to get a decent sound.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:01 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
I agree with you to a point Carlton, It's just easier to take it off than put it back in the right places

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:10 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
Dave,

    Having built more than 450 guitars, I have a reasonable idea of what
voicing is and the effects that even the most subtle variations in brace
mass and location have on a top's ability to work efficiently. I know you
don't know me, but i was really trying to be as articulate as I could be.
Our goals are identical as we voice our tops in an effort to minimize
damping, but since a certain level of damping is inevitable, we need to
learn to minimize its negative effects and turn it into a positive force as
much as possible.

    Your guitars and my guitars and those of any other builder, for that
matter, have a certain amount of necessary mass in place when
considering the plates and bracing and with that mass come specific and
unavoidable damping effects. My point, put as simply as possible was
that we have the opportunity to determine how those damping effects
become evident in our tops. We can, through experience and care, use
them to our benefit as we direct vibration to the least activated portions
of the top instead of just following the examples set by our favorite
builders on the guitars that we've enjoyed most from them or by
duplicating what we read in a book.

   I can inderstand your having a little chuckle with my choice of words
being what it was in that post. Sorry that I wasn't more clear in my
explanation of my approach and philosophy on the matter. Hopefully, i
can explain more clearly what I meant without being too funny.

   It's inevitable that there is going to be mass present as we brace a top
since those braces have mass and are glued to the top in our effort to
make them become a tone producing system of components with
sufficient rigidity and integrity to withstand the forces of a set of strings
pulling on them...hopefully for a lifetime.

   With that obvious mass is going to come a culprit that we all try to
eliminate as much as possible which is the damping effect that mass has
on that wonderfully resonant unbraced top plate that just rings for
seconds on end. As we reduce mass and its subsequent weight by
shaving braces and scalloping or tapering, we reduce the damping effects
of the braces on the top assembly relative to the distribution of the
remaining mass.

   The important and very obvious thing to remember and realize, though,
is that we can't eliminate ALL of the mass, which is the only way to
eliminate ALL of the damping so we have to be careful and considerate in
two respects.

    First, that we don't compromise the integrity of the top by removing
too much mass in our efforts to achieve the perfect level of resonance
and...
    Secondly, that we consider the distribution of the mass that remains in
an amount that provides adequate rigidity to provide integrity and
longevity.

    While mass can be significantly reduced through tapering, scalloping
and profiling of the braces according to the preferred approach of a
particular builder, improper distibution of the remaining mass can isolate
areas of the top, even when the bracing is extremely light and of very
small dimensions creating dead spots or inactive nodes in the top.

    As the peeks or points on braces are considered for both height and
location, the builder who has experienced the effects of their placement
being varied from one guitar to another for dozens or more guitars can
refer to past results to achieve consistency and to attain a better tone and
response characteristic set as their instrument numbers increase.
Experience is always the best teacher when we try different locations or
profiles for our braces...no matter what builders are being used as
references or models.

    I get more than a good chuckle from builders who come across as
being able to haphazardly place and shape braces and dismiss the
techinique of voicing and its importance. Great guitars don't happen by
accident. Those builders have been proven wrong by the results of
thousands of builders producing even more thousands of guitars of much
higher quality than theirs' while employing voicing through a myriad of
techniques. Voicing works and is essential to coaxing a top to respond as
close to its tonal and dynamic potential as possible.

    Many builders have identically duplicated the brace placement and
scalloping of a pre war Martin with hopes of achieving the same tone and
response only to be perplexed and disappointed when all is said and
done. There is something to be said about the illusive and cryptic
techiniques used by experienced builders while voicing their tops and the
guys who applied their expertise and experience to the tops of those
great old Martins were no exception. They were all different and for the
obvious reason that their accumulated components presented unique and
individual tonal capabilities that justified attention that was equally
unique and individual.

    Some voicing methods may seem strange and almost rediculous to
some, but those builders who use them have arrived at them through
years of trial and error and, in some cases, hundreds of handbuilt guitars
that have been closely measured and documented in every aspect in an
effort to learn and grow in the craft.

    As far as when the first uses of scalloping showed up in lutherie...I
have no idea, but many of the great violin builders were adamant about
the careful distribution of the mass of both the top and back plates as
they carved them to achieve great response to vibration throughout the
entire plate while maintaining strength. Some would suspend their tops
and backs between passes of the carving planes to check and document
the balance in order to be sure that weight, which is of course the
evidence of mass, was distributed to their liking and to arrive at the
desired tonal destination..

    All of the finest classic guitar builders of old utilized a form of mass
and weight reduction and distribution similar to that of the violin builders
as they tapered and carved their lattice, ladder and fan bracing while
carefully monitoring not only the effect of changes to the mass of
individual braces in the overall resonance and response of the top, but
also the changes brought about by the changes made to the mass and its
distribution across the entire bracing pattern.

   We commonly see broad variations in brace placement and dimensions
as well as profile and mass relief on guitars made by the same builder
well before the advent of steel strung instruments. It's also widely
understood that small nodes that may otherwise be muted or "dead" in a
great guitar's top can be activated and seemingly brought to life through
careful and very subtle changes made to particular portions of the
bracing inside of that top. Each note played on each string activates a
small node of the top and some notes can be brought into better balance
with others through careful changes made by an experienced craftsman
to their braces. It's not that the builder didn't get it right the first time,
but simply that changes that have occurred over the years to the wood
and and joints of the guitars have caused response changes to appear.

   I've played a few guitars that were braced and voiced very nicely by the
original builder and then had opportunity to play them after a fairly well
known and heavily self touted "revoicing" guy got inside to "correct" the
voicing and I have to say that I considered eah of them destroyed by the
revoicing process. Each one had been brought to a place where they were
no longer balanced and were very bottom heavy and even boomy. The
clarity of the highs was lost in a symphony of boominess and it was a
shame to hear. The builder has the best shot at approaching the potential
of a pieces f wood tonally and is working in the best environment to make
it happen during the initial construction process.

So, whether you're scalloping, tapering, using parabolic profiles that are
wide and low or narrow and high or any other method of achieving the
tone and response that you consider to be closest to the potential of the
woods chosen for a particular guitar or player, you are....whether you
know it or care to admit it... simply distributing mass and directing the
vibration of the strings throughout the top while doing so.

   I build an exceptionally light weight guitar by choice and mass is
present in your guitars to the same extent that it is in mine or any other
builder's and there's no way to refute or avoid that fact, but it's what we
do with that mass that determines where and how its damping effects will
show themselves. There will be damping in every guitar, but our care in
controlling it and making it work for us is something that can make the
difference between a great guitar and one that stuns every discerning
player who hears it with its incredible sustain and response.

    This is just a subject that can be discussed without end and will
present as many different approaches and opinions as luthiers who will
chime in about it. The end needs to be one that is reached by each
builder individually as they build to their own specs and closely document
and refer to the results that come with radical and subtle changes to their
designs, construction and techniques in an effort to grow in the craft and
to be able to more accurately achieve what it is they're hearing in their
head as a guitar's potential.

I look forward to getting back to work and trying a few new design and
construction ideas that i've been throwing around here. It's been a tough
time off for me and I'm ready to work. I'm really hoping to come across a
few things that will help me to achieve some tonal goals i've had for
several years now. Lots of research into obscure and widely overlooked
violin building techniques have played a huge role in my new found desire
to apply some radical methods that I'll share once they've proven
themselves to be beneficial or not in our genre of instruments.

    Believe me, I get a chuckle out alot of what I say, but we need to be
able to laugh at ourselves sometimes...right?

Thanks for reading,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega GuitarsKevin Gallagher39088.5273842593


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:12 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Here's something to think about....

After looking the Ervin's video's and thinking about the cube rule for the height of the braces.

Why aren't we using braces that are even thinner, yet higher.

So in my first top (the one that Bruce posted) the braces started out at 1/4" x 5/8" giving a cross sectional area of 0.15625 square inches.

Now, if we made the brace 3/16" x 11/16", this gives us a cross sectional area of 0.1289 square inches.

So if we have the same length brace with a smaller cross section, we should be reducing the weight of the brace, but not loosing strenght due to the cube rule for the height of a beam.

Here are the simple calculations for the section modulus about the x axis for each brace size.

1/4x5/8 gives an area of 0.15625 sq in which renders a section modulus of 0.0163 in^3

3/16x11/16 gievs an area of 0.1289 sq in which renders a section modulus of 0.0148 in^3

As you can see there is about a 9% reduction in the strength of each brace however the mass is reduced by about 18%.

Now if we are trying to reduce mass to avoid damping the top vibration, but still trying to keep the top strong enough to withstand the stress' from the pull of the strings, wouldn't it make sense to make the brace narrower and higher?

Just throwing this into the mix of the discussion.Rod True39088.0271759259

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:01 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States
Rod--exactly!

BTW, it seems as though the width/height math is only taking into account a rectangular cross-section of the example braces. How does shaping a brace into a triangular cross-section affect the equation?CarltonM39088.9639351852


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:53 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Yes, I didn't get too elaborite as my strenght of materials is rusty.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:32 am
Posts: 7774
Location: Canada
Very informative thread and very neat bracing patterns all around!

Tony, man that guitar is very nice, once again, the work coming out of your shop is just amazingly WOW!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:21 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
OK so if we had a triangluar section...

The Section Modulus would be as follows...

1/4x5/8 triangle area 0.078 in^2 with Sec Mod of 0.00407 in^3
3/16x11/16 triangle area 0.064 in^2 with Sec Mod of 0.00369 in^3

so difference in area and strength remain of course 18% and 9%.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:32 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:03 am
Posts: 456
Location: Toronto, Canada
"Why aren't we using braces that are even thinner, yet higher. "

Rod one thing to remember is that you have to have enough footprint area to make a good glue joint. If you go too tall and narrow the glue joint can fail.


_________________
David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:23 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
With stress on the joint I certainly agree with you David that there would be more risk of the joint failing with less gluing surface area. But making the brace only marginally thinner would still work I'm thinking.

Also, I would think that our guitar building forefathers would have tried almost anything to get the top to vibrate more. Anyone know why they dimensions chosen have been chosen. Is there any documentation that the top failed from a thinner, higher brace?

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:12 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
Rod,
    Just for the sake of mentioning a well known effort to loosen up a top
in a mass produced model, Martin's D-35 was originally built using X
bracing that was 1/4" wide and the same height as the 5/16" wide braces
used on its Dread counterparts with two piece backs. With the additional
joint in the back and the increased rigidity created by it, the dimensions
of the top braces were arrived at as the result of allowing more freedom
for the top to vibrate and to create a more balanced powerful tone. While
i did warranty repair for many years and when I worked at Martin in
Nazareth, there was never an elevated number of 35s in for top work as
compared to other models.

    In spite of what some builders claim, the back does contribute
significantly to the tone and response characteristics of any guitar and
the tighter back on the 35 model prompted the use of a looser top in
response to that fact.

    There are thousands of long lasting and great sounding D-35s out
there that have never suffered a failure of a brace to top glue joint so it is
a great testimony of the possibilities of thinner bracing, even at the same
height being used.

Just a thought,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:23 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:03 am
Posts: 456
Location: Toronto, Canada
"With stress on the joint I certainly agree with you David that there would be more risk of the joint failing with less gluing surface area. But making the brace only marginally thinner would still work I'm thinking."

Agree...the thing is we don't know exactly what stress the joint will be subject to and at some point marginally thinner is too thin to be reliable. I don't have the experience to say that 4/16 is fine and 3/16 is not. I bet that you would find that with a brace of a certain size you could build a thousand guitars and only have one brace pop. If you took 1/32 off you may find you have 2/1000 fail, take 2/32 off and you have 10/1000 fail, take 3/32 off and you have 100/1000 fail... etc

I am of course making these numbers up but I think at some point the rate of failure would start to go up very fast. My gut feeling is that 1/4" is already pretty close to the edge.

_________________
David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:44 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
    I'm sure that Martin experimented with bracing slightly narrower than that
1/4" wide dimension the settled on for their D-35 during its R&D days. That
dimension was probably finalized after loads of testing and stress.

   I agree, also, that it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the frequency in
cases of failure would increase as the brace width decreased on tops.

   I wouldn't recommend going under 1/4" on an instrument that will reach
the marketplace with a warranty on it for any builder.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:34 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 1518
Location: Canada
Kevin and anyone else
In the videos it is stated, and Ive heard elsewhere: that many factory guitars were overbuilt to satisfy warantee requirements, perhaps a little extra width was added to satisfy these?
Also Ive wondered how the reduction of mass by holes drilled laterally through braces factor into all of these equation hieroglyphics?
Also how you guys figure this affects mass tonal discussion?
Cheers
Charliewood


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:39 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 1518
Location: Canada
Wow I must be the biggest thread killer around here!
Just tell me what thread you want ended and I'll ask a question.
Cheers
Charliewood


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:56 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2951
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Charlie....

I think it must be bedtime for some. I think you are right about factory guitars being somewhat overbuilt as a matter of course.

Another thing that comes to mind, to me anyway, is when people talk about taller and taller braces what about the 'mass in the air space effect?' Have you ever seen a good ampitheater without mass in the air space? Acoustic engineers hang all sorts of things in the air space to help shape the sound. Dosen't a tall brace do the same thing to some extent? I think a brace adds mass & stiffness to the top/back and if it is tall enough, has an effect on the sound waves moving in the box as well.

Just an unsupport thought from a non-technical type, but it makes sence to me.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:13 am
Posts: 3270
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Rod True] With stress on the joint I certainly agree with you David that there would be more risk of the joint failing with less gluing surface area. But making the brace only marginally thinner would still work I'm thinking.

Also, I would think that our guitar building forefathers would have tried almost anything to get the top to vibrate more. Anyone know why they dimensions chosen have been chosen. Is there any documentation that the top failed from a thinner, higher brace?[/QUOTE]



How about shaping them like an "I-beam", but thinner at the top? You could retain the same footprint.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:25 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:25 am
Posts: 3788
Location: Russellville, Arkansas
Ron, I've seen I-beam braces, by one maker. I forget who, someone out on the Northern West Coast.

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:33 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:19 pm
Posts: 1051
Location: United States
John Gilbert made his braces shaped like an inverted T or like and I beam with the top taken off. His braces were tall and thin but his glus area was wider.

Instead of milling a rectangular brace into the "t beam", he laminated the I and T parts of the brace together with the T section flatsawn and the I section vertical grain (quartersawn). That gave him the strength needed without the splitting that would otherwise occur if the T were also vertical grain.

He was a career engineer before becoming a luthier so for him that affected his thought process.Shawn39089.0312847222


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:18 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:40 am
Posts: 1900
Location: Spokane, Washington
First name: Pat
Last Name: Foster
State: Eastern WA
Focus: Build
It seems to me that we could certainly use much narrower and taller
braces to reduce mass, but we might end up with a guitar whose sound
we wouldn't like. I'd bet it would be overly bright and maybe harsh. Seems
like this is an area where, if we move very far away from some "standard"
of what the inside of a guitar looks like, we'll end up with an instrument
whose sound has also moved away from some similar standard of what a
guitar sounds like or is "supposed to sound like".

Maybe the lost mass could be made up with a thicker top, which I'm sure
has been tried.

More food for thought, trying to balance one mystery of guitar building
with all its other mysteries!


_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com