Official Luthiers Forum!

Yes Mattia, the article states they are LMI...

I'll check out Home depot for the inserts..Thanks for the lead Tony..I'm feeling a little better about the Butt joint after everyones input..Thanks

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Beautiful Steve!! [/QUOTE]

Thanks, Hesh! Even if it does have some b/w/b in there?

Irwin, I use the "standard" (?) brass inserts, drive them in with a "T" handled driver (made just for this purpose), then flood the surrounding wood with CA.
I do not think it would be possible to remove the inserts. They are as firm--it seems--as if they had grown in the tree.

Good luck,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Bro
   I really do like that all koa guitar and the heel looks very delicate and well formed to me. Great work. I am interested in the kind of inserts you get from Home Depot that you drive with the T handle driver. What do they look like?

KBE

I have used threaded inserts made for wood applications... but it does make sence tome to use he other ones as the article sugests...
Anyone knows where to get them?

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I think these may be the brass inserts Steve is referring to...
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p=44203&cat= 3,41306,41311

John

"once they have been driven in by hand, using a long bolt in the drill press to keep them straight."

Can you explain a bit more or post a photo? I use the deep thread steel inserts from McFeeleys. They have a hex socket on the end that I drive with a T-handle Allen key. It is sometimes hard to keep them from cocking as they go in.

I've looked at the tapered zinc inserts and they didn't look trustworthy to me from an intuitive sense of how they would hold.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

John (A&K), yes, those are indeed the inserts.
I got mine first from a local hardware store, then from Woodworker's Supply. They have a slot for a screwdriver to fit in for installation purposes, but I've never been satisfied with that. I'm sorry I can't post a pic of my T-handled driver, but it is simplicity itself. The tip end is threaded 1/4-20, drives into the insert, "bottoms out" on the shoulder, then starts to drive the insert with a good bit more persuasion than a screwdriver.

(bro--I sent you a pic of this...post if you want.)

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

[QUOTE=Irwin R]

I also find Colins work and photo above fascinating!

[/QUOTE]

You and me both, Irwin!

Thanks for the kind words.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Love to Howard, but the web site wont let me upload the pix right now, maybe later ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] [QUOTE=Irwin R]

I also find Colins work and photo above fascinating!

[/QUOTE]

You and me both, Irwin!

Thanks for the kind words.

Steve[/QUOTE]

Thanks guys, group hug! I find that the breadth and depth of knowledge on this forum is mind blowing, when you have guys like Howard and Kevin and Joshua (add any other names you want) passing on their experience, it raises the standards of us all. (Then we go and look at Howard's website and get depressed again!).

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

In the meantime, I will try to describe ....

so you need to align and clamp the neck onto the drill press table such that the face of the heel is square to the drill bit, and hence the driver bolt. Drill the hole, dont move a thing, then replace the bit with the driveer bolt - mine is a 3 inch stainless bolt, fully threaded (all 1/4-20) to the hex nut end, then thread on 2 one inch long threaded rod connector couplings (1/4-20 of course) - one goes right up to the nut end tight, and this is chucked into the drill. Put the other coupling on, and then onto the end after it, the threaded insert, but not so far as to have the bolt sticking out. Now lower the press so that the insert is over the hole, and using a 7/16 wrench( the outer size of the coupling nuts), turn the lower coupling by hand, all the while with the other hand applying pressure with the drill press, drive the insert in - it works like a charm, straight in EVERY time - it has no choice. Then simply snap the lower coupling off the insert with the wrench ( while driving it in, they get pretty tight together), and turn the drill press belt bacjwards to unthread the bolt from the insert.

Darn I wish the upload was working ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I get it all, except when you back the lower coupling bolt off the insert at the end, how do you "snap" it away without backing out the insert? By applying pressure with the drill press while you turn the wrench?

Thanks a bunch. The use of the coupling nuts was the part I needed.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Usually, Howard, the lower coupling nut will release from the insert without much downward pressure, just a quick backward snap of the coupling with the wrench - the insert is driven in pretty snug to help this. If needed you could always hold the press's belt from turning (mine is open somewhat up top, its a 50's Canadian Beaver !!!), thus the insert and bolt cant turn as well ... you just need to try it !!!!

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Usually, Howard, the lower coupling nut will release from the insert without much downward pressure, just a quick backward snap of the coupling with the wrench - the insert is driven in pretty snug to help this. If needed you could always hold the press's belt from turning (mine is open somewhat up top, its a 50's Canadian Beaver !!!), thus the insert and bolt cant turn as well ... you just need to try it !!!!

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

That should have been coupling nut, not coupling bolt, above.

Hey, why don't we have edit anymore?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Being a carpenter for 30 years,I would never stick my butt in a joint.Seriously though, anyone can butt 2 pieces of wood together.It takes skill to M&T or DT.Isn`t building a guitar about being a special type of craftsman?Just my opinion.
                               James W B
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I cut it twice and it`s still too short?

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Going back to what Howard said to me on a previous thread, its not about making something simpler, its about making it elegant - well, there is nothing really elegant about something you cant really see, or doesnt improve the overall playability or tone of a guitar. So whats the point in complicating matters for no gain ???

Stradavarious used a butt joint and a nail ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

On the other hand:

"In the elder days of Art,
    Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part;
    For the Gods see everywhere."

--Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Gee thanks Howard ... ruined my day Off to luthing confessional to repent ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Howard, don't forget Bruce Dickey's immortal words, which are something of a rejoinder to Longfellow:

"In these modern days of Craft,
   Builders must rethink the way
Every piece is done. And that
   Seen or not---the gods won't pay!"

Good for you, Bruce!

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

[QUOTE=James W B] Being a carpenter for 30 years,I would never stick my butt in a joint.Seriously though, anyone can butt 2 pieces of wood together.It takes skill to M&T or DT.Isn`t building a guitar about being a special type of craftsman?Just my opinion.
                                 James W B
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I cut it twice and it`s still too short? [/QUOTE]
There's also the weight argument; a mortise and tenon joint requires a much larger, bulkier neck block than a butt-jointed neck.

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] There's also the weight argument; a mortise and tenon joint requires a much larger, bulkier neck block than a butt-jointed neck.[/QUOTE]

That got me to thinking. I might have to try a butt joint some time. Any time I can save weight I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't effect the sound or durability

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Say what you do, Do what you say.