Official Luthiers Forum!

I'll opine that for most luthiers work the small bench top table saws are more than adequate. I have one of the Porter Cable saws, mounted on a stand which only cost $300 on sale. With a thin kerf blade it is plenty powerful enough to do all of the luthier tasks I need it for. Sure it's too small and light for working large pieces of wood, but that's not a factor for making guitars.

Personally I use it a little more than my bandsaw but I wouldn't want to be without either.

_________________
David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I only own a table saw, and it is the third one I have owned in the past 5 years. My advice: whichever you purchase, get a good one, as in costing at least $500, preferably more. I use a friends band saw or sneak in to the local community college wood shop and use theirs.

I've found the DeWalt DW744 saw to be the best portable saw out there because of its fence system...I am a rather passionate DeWalt hater, but I have to admit this tool is a winner...on the flip side of the coin the cost is rather steep considering for a few bucks more you can get a full size Delta, but that's not a model that can be moved by one person with any ease...

I made mistake and meant a scroll saw. I have cut a bunch of tops, backs. brace etc. on my Dremel I bought online for $99.00. Most of what use a bandsaw for in this work is fairly thin and can be done with right blades (also cheaper, faster to change than bandsaws)I can store it in counter when not using it. Just takes some planning.

I was talking about "floor space" rather than full shop space, which are very different. One may have limited floosr space, but shop space with walls, cabinets etc and good organization get a lot of stuff in.

I use a 12" disc sander for neck and tail block shaping. I use this tool for many things.

Shop safety is a big issue, but I respect all of the tools and make sure when using particular ones, I am fully focused. I try not to fear them, but do have a certain amount to keep my respect for them up there. This will I know make me in the very large minority, but if needed floor space, would use bench top band or scroll saw and get a shaper. One can do so much on them. At one shop was at, used shaper and tablesaw more or at least as much as the bandsaw. All the brace work done on tablesaw and shaper (can use router table for this also (which can store away)

I know Hesh and others build inside their living area and that makes them use things much different than if in a garage, or detached building. They have to plan things out different do to dust, chips and other thing tools can make mess with. But reading his post, he has good organization and planning when doing certain things and store many of his tools and jigs. The smaller the full shop, means a lot less floor space.

I have less than 400 sq. ft of floor space. I am building and doing more storage area and work benchs to free up floor space. That way I can use maybe tablesaw and bandsaw, but will use a benchtop bandsaw if choice has to be made for a decent tablesaw.

I am now concentrating on a "thickness" sander, and instead of getting a bigger one like had, will get one I can easily store or push out of way, or make benchtop.

As stated for me anyway floor space is the premium and will use benchtop things can to make way for better and more used floor tools

i just received the 2008 grizzly catalog a few days ago and noticed they are now making a 10" version of the 12" tablesaw they released earlier this year. a little spendy and its not going to fit in a small shop, but grizzly rocks. i love my 1023slx. if i were doing it again i would probably nab this saw.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table- Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651

 

 

_________________
sweat the small stuff.

A couple of thoughts on table saws:

For slotting fingerboards and small jobs (ripping bindings, bridge blanks and the like), an older 8" table saw can be a good bet- in Canada this would be an older Beaver or General with a motor hanging off the back. With the table extensions removed, these have a fairly small 'footprint'. I've used a few 'self-powered' 10" saws and haven't been impressed with any.

I don't consider using a table saw without an outfeed table to be a safe way of cutting up large pieces of lumber. I've read comments about cutting up sheets of plywood with a table saw; PLEASE use a Skilsaw and a cutting guide to rough-cut your sheet goods, or jury-rig an outfeed table for your table saw.

For working without a tablesaw, you can get a long way with sawhorses, a Skilsaw, a router table, and some cutting guides and clamp-on straightedges.

Cheers
John

(2 tablesaws, 3 bandsaws, etc etc)

I just recently got a table saw for my shop, it's one of the Hammond Glider saws (moving table). I needed to cut a bunch of stock to a 20" length consistently and doing it on the Fadal wasn't time-economical.

That said, until a couple weeks ago is to was just the bandsaw, the Fadal, and my jointer. I have a hand saw I use for cutting chunks off boards, only takes me about 20 maybe 30 seconds to take a length off of a piece of 1x8" walnut and I haven't really had any other need for a table saw.

I wonder what the workflow differences are considering I make a lot of guitar parts here?

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

First, let me say, take this neck billet to your table saw and cut me out a couple of necks.  Pretty hard to do.

Take that same neck billet to a bandsaw with a 1/4 inch general purpose blade $10.90, and you can do it all day long on a 14".

Now, take a nice billet of adirondack spruce to the band saw and saw out braces, yeah, it'll do it, no problem.

Take that same billet of addy to a table saw with a diablo 7 1/4 24T and a zero clearance insert, well, it was made for this.

Take a nice plank of genuine mahogany 2 inches by 10 inches by ten feet.  Rip that on your table saw with a ten inch carbide blade for necks.

Now do it again 2" by 10" by 10 feet mahogany plank on the bandsaw.  A big bandsaw no problem, a smaller 14 or less size, it's taxing to say the least unless the saw has been beefed up.

I read a few of the comments in this thread, not all.  Truth is it's not an either / or proposition.  Bandsaws are great for certain jobs.  By the same token, tablesaws are great for certain jobs.  Ya need both, sometimes more than one of each.  If I had to choose, I'd go with the bandsaw, but I don't.

[QUOTE=grumpy] I built my first 30 or so guitars without a band saw.... I could build the next 300 without one, too.Nobody's answered yet. How many curved pieces are there in a guitar?
<div style=": ; width: 28px; height: 28px; : 1000; display: none;">

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

As I said I have both, but I love my bandsaw more.

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

My opinion..., and to reiterate what has already been said, it all depends
on your floor space and what you plan on spending the majority of your
time making.

Me, I went for the General 3hp cabinet saw. Takes up lots of room (6' x 3'
without the outfeed table) but I got the heavy duty mobile base so I can
wheel it out of the way. I would highly recommend the mobile base. It
locks in tight, but I can move the 550 lbs saw with one hand if need be.

That being said, I'm saving up for a good bandsaw.

Bob...I seem to recall you saying you didn't want a table saw..what
changed your mind?

Jamie

I finally went back and speed read this thread.  One really good point for the table saw is it's jigability.  I admit, ripping fretboard edges the tablesaw does exceptionally well.  And yes, fret slotting is fantastic on the tablesaw.  Ripping, cutting bevels on stock which I do frequently in general carpentry, not guitarbuilding.  Well, I just could not do without my fine tablesaw, no sir.

I remember building my first set of maple and birch plywood cabinets.  I had a rusty old tablesaw that'd been left out in the weather for years.  After a motor rewind, I added wooden wings and a ripping support to catch the work, oh my.  That old tablesaw made some beautiful cabinets with little help from anyone, jes' me, that was 1975.

WyomingDave, you really don't need any extras for the bandsaw.  Just buy one that will do the job out of the box.  You can hop up a basic saw, why not buy one with the upgrades?  I highly recommend going to Highland Hardware Library and reading this:

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=Cust om&ID=3

Scroll down to bandsaw articles and have a go at it.

You really do not need a point fence, as they show it.  Just draw a line down a jointed board and follow it.  Stop the saw, reset the fence to that drift angle, and you sir, are ready to cut wood.  Be sure to saw the thickness you are setting up for, if you are resawing 8 inches test with the same thickness.  If you have troubles with a bandsaw, this is a great resource.

Good luck bandsawing and tablesawing, both are great machines.

You're not going to get me to give up either!

Recently I purchased a Proxxon table saw, of course I have a larger  (cheap) contractor type saw, but it had seen better days and I really needed something more accurate to upgrade the quality of my custom marquetry (intarsia) and rosettes. The Proxxon is excellent and would be a fine choice for those with a space problem. As long as you start with small enough lumber, this thing will easily cut bridge blanks, bracing and lots of other stuff as it comes equipped with a very high quality carbide blade. In addition you can get a diamond blade which I found did a superlative job cutting pearl. This saw is well scaled for instrument components (unlike virtually every other table saw) and therefore I think safer to use. It has plenty of power and I treat it with every ounce of respect that I would give it's larger brethren.

Woodcraft sells this as well as Micromark (as their house brand). Micromark also sells a bench bracket which fits both the Proxxon and their other smaller model saw.     

Floor space certainly is something to be considered BUT, it's not the most important issue IMO if we are talking primarily about guitar building that is. If you also make cabinets, canoes or furniture, than that's a different story.

I built my shop for 95% guitar building, it totals 185 sft, is irregularly shaped with the longest wall being 16', I have a full size cabinet saw with a 32" fence on it, a 14" bandsaw, a 24" drum sander, small dust collector, semi-knock down spray booth and a bench with go-bar deck running along one wall with a bench top drill press on there too. I'm quite confident I could put out 24 guitars a year (If I had the time and interest) in my little shop.

I've been able to do everything I want in there as far as building guitars go as well as make some other pieces for the house.

Layout and organization is really key when you have limited space, sometimes it takes a while to get everything in the right place but once you're organized the flow between tools is really efficient.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I'll get some new pics tonight for you Filippo.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

As I said, I'm thinking about buying a table saw in the new year.  I'll certainly want to slot fretboards on it, but otherwise it will be delegated to non-luthier tasks.  While benchtop models might be fine for light use, I don't think I want to use one to make cabinets.  So my plan is to go with a hopefully more useful contractor saw that will both fit my shop and budget.  The original plan was to go with a Grizzly, but now I am seriously considering the Rigid TS3650 that I have been visiting at the local Home Depot.  It seems to be well built, is easy to move around, and has gotten some great reviews.  Does anyone here have any experince with this saw?
Mike.

Rod,
Man, your space is smaller than mine! I've got 240'(12x20). I want to see pics too. We can all learn about organizing! I've got a 14" band saw, that Delta table saw I hate using, Rikon belt sander, Delta drill press, bench top oscillating sander, and other misc. power tools. And just one bench that's slowly getting overtaken. I'd like to see just how you've made it work. Gotta admit, though, no shelving yet. My building isn't finished yet. In fact, I'm insulating this week. I'm still running a power cord to it from the house. I know, I know.....it's not a good thing, but it's working ok for what I'm doing. No blown breakers yet.
Dave

My 14" Jet is a pain in the butt, always wandering this way and that. Too
much time spent on setup so I rely on my old table saw for most things. If
you can get a good bandsaw setup, you can slice stock nicely - I've been
told, I just haven't achieved consistent results.

_________________
A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

[QUOTE=MikeM] So my plan is to go with a hopefully more useful contractor saw that will both fit my shop and budget. [/QUOTE]

Mike-
If you can afford it, a Unisaw knockoff (closed base, motor 'under') is better than a contractor-style (open base, motor hangs off the back) if you want to attach it to a dust collector, and are trying to keep your work area clean.
I have a contractor-type saw. I use my saws in the 'garage' (will never hold a car again), and it never gets cold enough here to worry about opening the door/window so dust control from the table saw is not a big deal for me.

Cheers
John

I don't have a bandsaw so have to make do with a tablesaw. Mine is a Skil 10" contractor type. It has a cast aluminum table. I've put it through the wringer in the six years I've had it and have no complaints. I would highly recomend it.(Skil that is) 

On the safety side, I was surprised at the stats on saw injuries. I can count on one hand (which is fully intact) people I know who've lost fingers or parts thereof on bandsaws (including my next door neighbor)but know of nobody who has on a table saw. I wholeheartedly agree that with any injury it's never the tool but the guy at the helm to blame. 

Wish I'd never seen the pic of the dude shaping the neck on the tablesaw. I'm just crazy enough to give it a try!

JR

[QUOTE=Ricardo] My 14" Jet is a pain in the butt, always wandering this way and that. Too
much time spent on setup so I rely on my old table saw for most things. If
you can get a good bandsaw setup, you can slice stock nicely - I've been
told, I just haven't achieved consistent results.[/QUOTE]

Ricardo - I think it's a matter of power (and good blades don't hurt). I had the same experience as you, running a Delta with a 1 HP motor. I recently upgraded to a 2 HP Baldor motor, high speed (Iturra) drive pulley, and a Lenox Trimaster (1/2"). The thing will resaw 8"-10" wood all day now, with narry a wander or bowed cut in site. I think the motor is most of the reason.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu