Official Luthiers Forum!

I think what really needs some caution is what is written on the Net, in the news paper etc... because sometimes it is really hard to figure out what someone is saying.

Ken if you don't mind, I'll use you as an example. If you do mind, I'm sorry, but you've typed somethings that I've questioned and they will make my point above more clear.



See, to me this sounds like you are willing to let the customer decide what is acceptable when it shouldn't be that way. So by typing this I'm let to believe that you are willing to let something go if it's ok with the customer even if you think it could be better.

So perception of what is really being said is difficult.

Ken, I have never seen your guitars in person or heard them so I can't comment on them in anyway. From what you've said here on the OLF about the number of commissions you've been getting over the past 6-8 months, you've got to be doing something that's right.


If this is the case call them on it Ken. If you know you're work is up to snuff than either call the accuser's on the insinuation or just ignore them. (some times that's more difficult to do than to say). Of course first hand, honest pier review is the best thing that anyone who is building for resale can do (actually for any reason for building). Send one of your guitars to Jim Olson, or Kevin Ryan, or Kevin Gallagher or.... who's guitars are flawless and see what they say about them. If they come back and tell you you're on the right track than don't worry about what other people say. Water off a ducks back dude.

At the end of the day, it's always the customer who sets the market for any product. Word of mouth is always the best advertising there is because if someone is really happy with a product, they usually let everyone know. And the flip side of course is if someone is really dissatisfied with a product, they usually let everyone know.

And if anyone thinks that Fit & Finishes are not as important as tone & playability, just try and get 5 figures for a crappy looking guitar that sounds good. It won't happen. Anyone who really wants to make a living in this industry has got to be on par with those who's products are as close to perfect as can be humanly created.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Yes - be very careful what you send. Pictures of my build process are posted on forums. It is a representation of me and my work, even when it is in process. I have learned to be a lot more careful what pictures I let out.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I have bought and still have some plastic purfling strips where the white center strip is not uniform in size. To me, this is no big deal since we are talking about a variance that is only a few thousands thick. To some of the people who post pictures of things they are upset about on the AGF, this may be a BIG issue. I have installed this stuff (that I bought from one of this forum's large sponsors) and didnt realize that there was a problem until the final scraping and sanding. The problem wasnt my work, but a flaw in the materials. This is the type of thing that I was talking about and if any of you doubt that it is real, I'll send you some of it to try out for yourself. I also have some full depth BWBW plastic purfling that has the same issues with one of the white layers being too thin in some spots.

Does this constitute a problem for 99% of most guitar buyers?? not in my book, but it is something that I may point out if I think the customer is THAT picky.

Also, we seem to have 2 conversations going on here at once about 2 different threads on the AGF. One of them involved me in which someone was banned from the AGF because of them going off on a rant over a gap and then attacking a moderator who was trying to bring some civility to the thread. That is what I was responding to in my earlier posts.

We all know that the only thing holding a nut in place is one drop of CA. I usually release the tension on the strings of a guitar before I ship it. I could see where it may be possible that a nut could come loose and then someone who doesnt realize it get their new guitar and bring it up to tune without seeing the loose nut. I really believe that this may have been the issue with one of the threads and could have easily been resolved. The main thing the customer was peaved about was a lack of communication between the luthier and the customer prior to delivery of the guitar. Had this taken place, you would have never heard about there being any problems.

Getting back to the discussion about the thread on the AGF about my build and the guy who went off on the moderator, I find it interesting that since that date there have been no further posts by a well known luthier who is more well known for some VERY abrasive posts than his guitars, even here on this forum in the past. This may be a coincedence, but interesting none the less.


It would be nice to only build 6 guitars a year and get paid 5 figures for each one, but in the real world that doesnt happen too often. Right now I am happy to be building guitars at a steady pace that is keeping food on my table and making some people extremely happy at the same time. Maybe in time I will slow down, become famous, and get to that arena of lutherie where my guitars demand the 5 figure prices. Every guitar I sell is a true blessing to me and my family. I am extremely thankful for each one. If you are one of those guys that can demand 5 figures for a guitar, then God bless you man! I look up to you and will try my best to learn from you. I can only work hard and pray that my career takes me to that point at some time in the future.

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Reguards,

Ken H

See, this IS your problem because you represent the final product, not the vendor you bought your goods from. This is your problem because it's not perfect and if you can see it, why not just cut off the binding and purflings and get some purflings that do not have a variance that is noticeable?

I'm certainly not questioning that it is real, I'm just questioning why you wouldn't fix it if you notice it. Send the stuff back to the vendor telling them it is not acceptable and get some that is acceptable. 0.001-0.003" isn't that noticable but anything over that sure is and than the goods are not what was to be sold to you, so contact the vendor and make it right so you can make your products right.


But don't YOU want to be that picky? That's the point I'm trying to make.


You're right. Those guys who can charge 5 figures for their guitars are making any where from 30-60 guitars a year, putting in 60-80 hour work weeks, plus weekends, usually don't take holidays because they can't afford to miss the time in the shop to get their guitars out on time. I'm sure it's not as glamorous as one might think.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

What you arent getting is that I *DO* cut it off and redo it in most cases. Some customers want bottom of the line basic guitars and have bargained from there to get me to my lowest price. For one of those customers, if the variance was noticable to me but doubtful if they would notice it, but reasonable enough I would then send the customer a picture discribing the variance along with an explanation. It isnt a surprise for them and in most cases they couldnt care less about it anyway. For the ones who are paying for the upper end guitars, it is cut off and done over without them ever knowing there was a problem. I have been known to cut binding and purflings off three times before I get it as perfect as I want it. You might also note that I rarely use plastic purflings on my upper end guitars. The upper end guitars get all wood purflings.

Lets be real here too, this is a rare occurance and not an everyday thing. I am even considering going to no side purflings and possibly not even top purflings for the lower end guitars just to eliminate the problems. As far as hours in the shop, an 80 hour work week would be a short week for me. The thing is, I enjoy every minute of it.

you may find it interesting that I have a waiting list for my experimental guitars as well. I tell them up front that I build these guitars purely to hear what they sound like, and I dont put a lot of effort into the craftsmanship because they are just experiments to hear what they sound like. Of course I sell some of these, and for a reduced price and with a limited guarantee, but people dont seem to care a bit about the fit and finish on those guitars. For those customers, it is purely the sound they are after and couldnt give a rats arse about the looks. structurally, they are sound and solid but the finer details are lax...on purpose. I make money on them even at the reduced price. The label inside the guitar plainly states that they are experimental guitars with a limited warranty.
One of them, for instance, was bought by a college kid who wanted a better guitar, but didnt want it to be from a well known builder or look too good because he was afraid it would be stolen. He was thrilled with the experimental guitar he got from me at a discount because he said it would be doubtful anybody would steal it and was thrilled with the sound and playability. We both came away happy on that deal because I got to try an experiment without loosing any money and he got a pretty good guitar at a bargain price.

Top end guitars get top end treatments and are as flawless as I can possibly make them. The lower the price, the lower the fit and finsih requirements. Several of my customers have commissioned more than one guitar. One customer bought 3 of them, all top of the line models.

You may totally disagree with what I am doing, but it is working well for me so far. The customers are happy no matter if it is my high end guitars, middle line, or basic experiments. Happy customers and making money is what it is all about.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I would never disagree with what you are doing as long as you are being honest (it is sounds like your are, and I'm not suggesting that you are not).

The first comment that I made and you replied to is in regard to the binding issue. You initially wrote something as if it sounded like it was your general practice, not the "once in a large number" type thing, that's all I'm saying. I'm just pointing out what you originally wrote and it was sounding like your "norm" and standard. Good to hear that's not the case. Just helping you be careful with what you write is all.

The spectrum of hand built guitars is quite large and it sounds like you've landed yourself in several camps. This sounds like it's working for you but can be confussing to the on looker of the "experimental guitar" or the lower grade guitars. This could turn them off of your product without as much as a phone call to you when what they are really looking for you maybe able to give them but they've just seen something that they don't like and dismiss you as someone who may have (I said may have!) soddy craftsmanship. Who knows, I've been wrong many times in my life and this could certainly be one of those times.

My guess is you'll be able to do this for a while and I hope it doesn't come back to hurt you in the long run. It's really only the factories who can afford to put out such a large range of quality and not get blasted for it. Martin has guitars ranging from a couple hundred $$ up to $10,000+ but they can do this because they are a factory.

You don't see Ferrari putting out to many options when it comes to the quality of their cars. They are all high end, some are just more high end than others.

I guess the question is (For everyone, not directed at you individually Ken) is what do you want to produce? A Ford, or a Ferrari?

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

And the other side of that, do you want your guitar bought as a prize and placed in a case to be looked at as much as played or bought as a tool and used and enjoyed as such? Not that one is better but between those extremes where are you looking to be? It is great when they overlap but it cannot be that way all the time.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Now that all depends on the purchaser doesn't it.

I want to build Ferrari's (well the guitar parallel that is)as they look stinking cool as heck and perform even better!

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I'll settle for the Ford Mustang GT fastback with a 351 Cleveland in it

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Reguards,

Ken H

Now there's a classic!

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Ken,
I'm just curious....What successful pros have left this forum behind? I know of none, but
enlighten me if you don't mind.

This is the spot on the web for luthiers to come to communicate with other luthiers....of
all skill and experience levels....at least as far as I can see.

All the other forums online are geared more to providing a venue where luthiers can be a
part of discussions between players.

Some of the problem at other forums is that builders with little to no experience and
guitars built that are nothing short of a mess can fool alot of people into thinking that
they're really masters of the trade.

I guess the trouble for some guys with this forum is that they can't fool anyone here. I
can imagine that there have been a few who have moved on for that reason.

I look at the work of guys like Lance, Brock, Hesh and a few other guys who still refer to
themselves as young in the craft and I'm continually impressed with their design sense,
their attention to detail and the skill with which they execute even the most tedious and
demanding parts of a build. With all of the information that changes hands here on a daily
basis, this is an invaluable resource for anyone who is serious about this craft...and about
furthering their education in it.

I'd hate to see anyone leave in a huff because they didn't feel they were getting the
respect and attention that they deserve. If that's the case, there may be a need for a little
self examination and examination of their own work. If we really want to improve our work
and to grow our skills and knowledge, we need to be willing to listen to all manner of
input, both positive and negative. It's tough sometimes, but it can really inspire us as
we maintain and allow this sort of accountability to others in the industry.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Ken,

I am just curious, according to your web site, price for your base models is 3950$.
At what price point you start to make your guitars as flawless as you can,
and at what price a customer should expect and accept lower fit and finish requirements?

Some people thingk that buying a custom guitar is like buying a car where there is a sticker price, then you negotiate down from there to a comfort level for the customer.

On occasion I will do that. If they beat me down on price, they can expect to get lesser quality fit and finish. I pretty much explain it to them that if they beat me down on price, they can expect to get the same car, but without air conditioning, carpet, and automatic transmission and with a 4 cylinder engine. I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time and effort building a sub compact that I will selling the rolls royce.

It is all a matter of negotiations. I might also note that I havent built many sub compacts. People quickly realize that if they want the best, they are going to pay for it. It is also getting to the point where I dont have time to build sub compacts. There are too many higher end guitars to build and I would rather spend my time where I am making the most money.

Get into business for yourself and you will quickly learn the art of negotiations.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I'm probably not one to give an opinion on this since I have never sold a guitar - but in your situation (where people are wanting to negotiate your price down) why don't you offer an "economy" version of your guitar. Basically offer 2 grades of the same guitar. Select a cheaper wood, use plastic binding, eliminate purfling, standard dot fret markers, cheap $70 case. Then if someone can't afford your high end guitar but really want one of yours, they have an option without you needing to compromise fit and finish and I might say the risk of compromising your reputation as a luthier as well. The reduction in price should come from the appointments on the guitar, not the workmanship.

I'm a stair builder by trade. Our customers expect the same quality job whether they are purchasing a cheap straight stair for their basement or a grand curved mahogany stair. A gap is a gap. A scratch is a scratch. A squeak is a squeak. I can't tell the customer complaining about a squeak that it is too bad, they should expect a squeak because they paid less than if they had bought a curved stair.

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John Ressler

Ken my friend I have been trying to stay out of this so as to not appear to be piling on you or anyone else for that matter. So please take my comments as they are sincerely intended here and that is to be helpful to you.

I really am getting the impression that you are not understanding the point of view of many of the other posters in this thread. What I believe that the collective opinion is that in this craft there is an expectation that the builder will ALWAYS do their best craftsmanship irregardless of the price point that any of their guitars sell for.

Lutherie to me is all about craftsmanship, artistry, skill, and hopefully some magic as well. Every single guitar that we produce is to me not unlike the children that I never had. They are my legacy, all that will hopefully remain one day when I am gone. With this said I of course want my guitars to be the very best that I can produce - always.

Quality is not a negotiation nor should it ever be. If you have a customer that asks you to provide a lower standard of quality than you are capable of producing perhaps it's time to refer this customer to someone else. No disrespect intended.

As the builders of our guitars we must take full personal responsibility for every aspect of these guitars. This includes the materials that we use as well. If a vendor sends us something that is not perfect - don't use it or if you have already used it do what Lance suggested and do it over.

When a builder makes the jump to light speed and begins to sell their guitars the accolades of family and friends who were kind enough to provide us with encouragement and compliments fade and the critical, market driven critique of the real world rules the day. And so it should.

There are many people building guitars today and not unlike any market or industry differentiation from the competition is something that we all need to be looking for. Ask yourself what your value proposition is and how does it differ from the competition.

Some builders may offer unique designs, specific tone, a reputation that has been earned and time tested, etc. but this is the very first time that I have ever heard a builder indicate that to them quality is a negotiation.......

None of this is an attack on you Ken my friend. I simply want to be sure that you understand what some of the others have offered. If you disagree and believe that there is a niche market for guitars that can be had with a goal of lesser quality or attention to detail and that this is your choice as your value proposition and business model - I simply may be the one here that does not get it.........

Thanks.

In my opinion (FWIW), One should always strive to do the best job possible and try to do better every time. No matter if it is for $500 or $5000 dollars. If something is not quite rite and I know it, then it's not rite. Quality craftsmanship should always be the #1 priority. I would rather give someone a good guitar than sell them a bad one.


edit:
Seems as though as I was typing, Hesh pretty much said what I wanted to and said it much better.

Personally, I want to make musical instruments - that is something that the owner wants to play lots to give themselves and listeners pleasure and because of the sound, response and playability gives them the confidence and ability to take their playing forwards to another place. I also want to do this on the basis of my sound - I don't want to be the equivalent of a Hong Kong tailor that will make you a copy of any suit you specify.

I have little to no interest in making a finely executed piece of art furniture that spends most of its time its case or climate controlled trophy cupboard.

Bottom line - there are lots of different market segments from ones with customers with little disposable income and huge musical telent potential, to ones with lots of customers dripping with cash and all stops in between. Based on your gaols/drivers and income requirements pick the segment you want to be in and do whatever is necessary to be successful in that segment.

Important question to ask a potential customer - "Why do you want to buy one of MY instruments?"

Important question to ask of youreself - "Why am I making these instruments?".

If you went into a shop and played an instrument that when you played it make such a sweet connection to you (your own pesonal Stradavarius) but was a little scruffy in it's fit and finish, and you could afford it, could you walk away from it? The answer to that will help you decide which customer segment as a buyer you are in.

Also don't make the mistake of judging from moral high grounds - that's usually the start of a slippery slope. To adapt a much quoted phrase in this thread "EVERYTHING is subjective". That's the beauty of the human race.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Some luthiers on this forum have tried that approach, and it just doesnt work. The ones paying the least amount of money are always the ones who complain the most. They also expect the most. I'm just getting so many other commissions now that I just tell them up front that If they want the bottom of the pile guitar, I'll build it when I can but my time is better spent building the higher priced guitars and that is where I put the most effort when it comes to quality and craftsmanship.

Oh sure, they will get a good sounding and easy playing guitar for the bottom price, but it wont have any frills and if there are small flaws in the work I'm not going to go back and do it over. they know this up front and I dont pull any punches when I tell it to them.

When you explain the way it works, people get wise really quick and realize that if they want the best, it is going to cost them. Then again, some people just plain dont care what a guitar looks like. It is all about the sound to them. If it has some flaws and blemishes, then so be it, they dont care. I can accommodate them if I have the time. They end up with something that sounds better than anything they can get off the shelf at the the box store, but it wont be a top of the line guitar.

Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. If you are up front with them, they understand and will usually opt for an upgrade or two to make it worth your efforts to take more time and better care building their guitar.

The opposite applies as well when negotiating: NEVER lead a customer into believeing he will get a rolls royce guitar for the price of a Yugo.

As I explained above, it is all about negotiations and all of this is done up front so there is no misunderstandings about what they will get for their money. I really dont mind if a customer turns me down when we start negotiating and goes to another luthier who will build for less. He or she will understand before they leave that they get what they pay for. If the other luthier can build a guitar flr less money and make a living doing it, then more power to him. The potential customer will leave as friends and not offended. The only time I have had someone become offended is when they ran a story about my business in the local paper and a guy called me up wanting me to build him a guitar using his grandmother's kitchen table for the wood and to build it for $500 (which he thought was a high price). Even with this rediculous offer, I was still polite with him and I aked him to go check out guitars at the local guitar center and ask about their upper end guitars. When he got their prices he would understand why my guitars cost so much. I also explained that it takes me about 2 months from start to delivery to build a guitar and if he will work for 2 months for $500, then I will hire him.

I also keep every communication I get from and send to people I am dealing with so that if there is any problems in the future, I always have something to go back and refer to.

If you dont know anything about being self employed and business, you may want to consider taking a few classes at your local community college to learn how businesses work and how to negotiate price. This will open your eyes and help you to make money too.

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Reguards,

Ken H

The way I look at this is this. (These are general comments.. not necessarily part of the the Ken conversation. They apply equally to all of us)

No matter who the customer is, no matter what their expectations are, no matter what they paid for it... this is... and always will be MY guitar. My name is on it and it will always be a statement of me and my work. Other people may own it, but it will ALWAYS be my guitar.

So, why on earth would I want to EVER put anything out in the market that I do not feel is a testament to the best work I can deliver?

Through its life it is likely to change owners, get passed around at gatherings, and be seen my potentially hundreds of people. None of these people (beyond the original purchaser) will ever know (or remember) the details of the transaction. I don't think we can ever compromise ourselves or our best work.

You know... I was watching the Gourmet Guitars video last night with Rick Turner, Michael Lewis and Kim Walker... and Michael Lewis said something I found interesting. "Master level work requires master level work." On the surface that seems at best obvious and maybe a little silly -- but I think it is an important frame of reference. If you want to be the best, you simply have to BE the best. Don't settle. Don't compromise.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I understnad Hesh. I completely understand. I know you are not attacking me and I have typed for 2 days here to try to explain how things work, but for some reason everybody is wanting to argue about the color of the blue sky and nobody is wanting the free money.

Somehow, no matter how much I type to explain this, none of you realize what I am saying. Flaws, no matter what price they pay, are avoided at all costs.

The things I consider a minor flaw most guitar players and buyers would never even know it was a flaw. No where in this communication am I talking about giving a customer a piece of crap for a lot of money.

I have pointed out things to my customers, just so there is never any problems in the future, of problem places on their guitar where I consider it to be a flaw. 99.9999% of them will say "That is a flaw?? Heck, i would have never noticed it and it doesnt matter". Either that or they dont even see what I am talking about in the first place.

Hesh, you, yourself, put out a tutorial on how to fill small gaps in bindings so that they blend in and are completely invisible repairs. So I ask you, is this a flaw? Would you cut the binding off and do it again for a customer that has bargained you down to your rock bottom price or would you fill the gap as invisible as you possibly can and go on with the build?? THIIS is the kind of thing I am talking about here

I am NOT talking about leaving glue filled gaps in a binding job or a huge gap in a joint and passing it off as quality work.

Once this difference is understood, then you will get a grasp on what I am trying to say here and the extent of what kind of a flaw I am talking about.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Fascinating thread…
Like Brock I'd like to make a more general comment and get out of the personal here.
I've seen in the past comments stating that because it's handmade it cannot exhibit the perfection achieved by machines, or rather manufacturing.
I am extremely uncomfortable with that notion and feel that beyond being false, it is precisely the opposite. Because it is handmade, and as makers we make informed decisions every step of the way, we have an incredible advantage.
I'd hate to see players think that with a handmade guitar, they get "less" than with a mass produced instrument.
Otherwise what do we have to trade? Romance?
There is surely a market for "homemade" guitars. And there's nothing wrong with selling good sounding and well set up first instruments, however flawed cosmetically, to friends at cost plus perhaps a minor fee.
But getting in the "global" market, as opposed to the local fair, requires, I think, much more attention.
I do not feel too strongly about the bad image flawed instruments bring to the trade, I think most buyers tend to know better.
Nevertheless, in the past Guilds controlled their respective markets. An apprentice had to learn with various masters, at the end of which he had to craft a masterpiece that would be judged by peers in the trade. Only then, his masterpiece accepted, the apprentice could establish himself as a craftsman and sell his wares. Quality control was high, even for established artisans. It may sound like a mafia, and it surely was at times, but it had the advantage to keep the level of craftsmanship pretty high.
Those who decided to pursue guitarmaking as a career know that there are easier, better and less stressful ways to make a living.
If it's only about money, and there's so little in this field, burn-out arrives quickly and all Hell breaks loose. That is what started this thread, if I recall.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I love the ideal of the master craftsman who values reputation over having bread to put on the table, but I'll go on the record as saying I believe 100% that quality is and should be negotiable for anyone who is pursuing guitarmaking as a business rather than luthiery as a hobby.

It's simple economics. If it takes you 500 hours to do your best work on a guitar, subbing in plastic binding and a cheaper case and so on saves you at most a couple hundred dollars in materials costs. If you're trying to hit the, say, $2000 price point with a viable option, you're setting yourself up to make less than $4/hr.

Something has to give - if you're going to try for a certain price point and still want to make money, you'd better figure out how you can expedite your process. If that means cutting out "frill" options, great! That's a smart way to do it. If that means cutting materials costs - great, another smart decision. But at some point, you're going to come up against a hard and fast wall that unless you can build it faster, you can't make a profit. Can you tool up or buy some pre-made parts to save time and money? Great! But once you've exhausted all those options, you have three options, as I see it:

1. Concede that price point. Recognize that you will not be able to compete in the market for an $x,xxx guitar.

2. Compromise some element of build quality. Recognize that in order to build a guitar that's profitable at $x,xxx you have to let some details go. That doesn't mean you intentionally work sloppily, it just means you work quickly and potentially change your standards of what is acceptable fit and finish to ensure you can build a product that's satisfactory to the buyer with an investment of time and materials that is profitable.

3. Lose money/work for free at that price point to build a reputation so you can command higher prices in the future. Lots of folks have tried it, it's worked for some. Some just got burned out and quit, some never got people to jump from seeing their work as a $2k guitar to seeing it as a $6k guitar. But definitely a tried-and-true strategy.


Andrew

www.guitarmatch.com

Great reply Laurent!

Andrew, I think you hit the nail right on the head with your post too.

Someone started a thread about this very subject over on the AGF. I think it would be an interesting read no matter where your opinions are on this subject. These are the opinions of the guitar buying market and many of these that have answered own hand built guitars.

check out this poll: HERE

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

IMHO,

if you master your trade,
it should not take considerable more time to do given task perfectly than do it shoddily.
Mistakes happen to everybody, and it takes time to correct them.

But if you can make clean joint, you can do it in the same time it takes to make a joint.

Andrew I heartily disagree with your position here.
If it takes 500 hours to make a guitar, the builder may be ready to sell guitars, but not to make a living at it. Unless buyers agree to pay $xx.xxx for them.
Compromising elements of build quality or materials is a slippery slope that leads to dark abysses for the independent luthier IMHO.
All valid observations for a factory, at the extreme for a low-level production shop. But not for a guitarmaker who's trying to build a reputation.
Again, what is the buyer buying then, as opposed to a (well) manufactured guitar? Romance?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/