Official Luthiers Forum!

Here's a Saw Stopping option that works on flesh proximity to the blade guard instead of contact with the blade and doesn't wreck your blade or cause loss of production: http://www.whirlwindtool.com/ It isn't in production yet and I don't know how long they've been working on it.

Anything like this , 100% effective or not is a step in the right direction . ( no reflection on your comment Todd , I follow your line of thought ) I like the looks of the one in the vid , however it does "seem" to limit the size material one could cut . Which may not be all bad either .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

We all do stupid things from time to time. At any given moment, yes, you can avoid an accident by being careful, but to think you will go your entire life without ever doing anything stupid is, itself, being stupid. The only question is whether you will be fortunate enough not to suffer serious consequences.

I don't have a SawStop, but I would like to if circumstances (both $ and shop-space) permitted. I'm glad the technology is available. Shame on the industry for refusing to even make it an option for so many years when the inventor was shopping it around.

Interesting thread. I agree that Safety is the most desirable first step in any process using equipment that can maim or kill. While the saw stop is a great value for added protection, I also agree that it can enhance ones thoughts that they are less likely to get hurt.

Example:
What if the one time someone has the SawStop Brake disengeged (there is an override switch for this reason) for cutting say treated lumber that is high moisture content?
The saw is now as deadly as any other manufactures and offers no additional protection.

I know of an individual that refuses to take any courses to learn woodworking (which it has been suggested many times) and purports to have many years doing woodworking. HE has plenty of money and buys tools at a whim. He also bought a SawStop when they first came out. Since then he has bit his fingers 13 times in the past 15 months. Setting off the brake and damaging his blades. The point is, he looks at the technology as his safety net. I'm glad this guy actually has a SawStop for the reason he still has fingers and hands. Realistically he should not own a saw period or any other power tool in my opinion, but that is my thought, I worry for his grand kids when they are around him.

I will not give out his name, but if you happen to go to the Woodcraft in Addison Tx. I'm sure if you ask someone there they will tell you the stories of this guy. There are others about this individual that would and should scare anyone to death by his actions.

So enough about story telling.

Basic Safety comes first, period. Enhanced tools will allow some additional leeway due to a lapse in whatever to hopefully minimize an event, but any event should more so, enhance and instill in the operators brain, the need to learn and practice safe operation of any and all power tools, as well as be aware of others around them when operating the same.

Just my 0.02 cents worth,

BTW glad you are ok.

Mike

_________________
I'm outside looking in, just farther from the window than most.

I've seen the owner doing a live demo on a TV show. He very carefully pushed his finger into the -side- of the blade so as to set off the system without having to rely on it. It was a crystal clear view into his character.

The guy's a pure opportunist. He's never offered licensing at a reasonable rate, and he's tried once or more to use the legal system to force the technology on the market (at his over-inflated price). It's one thing to charge whatever you want for your product, but it's completely another to price the product unreasonably and then try to use the legal system and emotional appeals to bully other companies into buying your product at said price. That's not so different from racketeering.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I have been following this thread closely , I agree the inventor is a twerp , and many valid arguements have been made . Safety needs to be first and foremost .

However , lets NOT lose sight of the fact that Peterm still has a thumb . IT WORKED.

Aparently there is an idiot in texas that shouldnt even have sharp pencils , HOWEVER at least 13 times it WORKED, he still has his hands /thumbs .

I am NOT disagreeing that the need is there to focus on safety , and I am NOT disagreeing with the valid points most have made !

it STILL boils down to IT WORKED ! Peterm is happy it did ! I am happy it did for him .

I cannot help but wonder how many people will say , its a ruse , it may or may not work , it is a gamble ! And yet will go out same day and buy a lottery ticket !

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

...and refuse to use their seatbelts and continue to smoke cigarettes. Can't fix stupid.

I'm not sure if the numbers on the Whirlwind site are accurate now but they are quoting a 2003 Consumer Product Safety Commision Hazard Screening Report http://www.whirlwindtool.com/GO-hazard_tools.pdf on power tools and workshop equipment:
Table Saw Dangers-
58 people per week suffer amputations
1,000 people per week injured in U.S.
Annual injury cost estimate $2 billion
All saw dust is now classified as carcinogenic

Even if these numbers are half as much now (doubt it...probably much more), the problem is not trivial and the industry has done nothing other than providing blade guards and splitters which are not effective for whatever reason. Riving knives are a step in the right direction but much too late and too scarce. Their head is in the sand to the obvious pain and suffering their product is causing in their biggest market, the Consumer/non-Industrial market where the Idiot Pool runs very deep and gets deeper with every second. They better get off their rearends and fix this problem. The Ryobi lawsuit is just spitting in the ocean.

Just an FYI for you Saw Stop owners. I just found out that if you set off your Saw Stop brake due to a Flesh/ finger. Send the brake back to Saw stop and they will replace it free. Somehow they can determine what set off the brake. ??? Not sure how but I just confirmed this with the Wood Craft manager. ?

So give it try if you happen to be unfortunate enough to set off your brake in this manner.

Mike

_________________
I'm outside looking in, just farther from the window than most.

"Number of owned dogs in US: 77.5M
Number of dog bites in the US: 4.5 M/year
Injuries per owned dog per year: 0.06 dog bites/owned dog

Number of tablesaws in the US: 6M to 10M
Number of tablesaw injuries per year: 31,500
Injuries per tablesaw per year: 0.004 injuries/tablesaw"

I think this points out two facts. One, people are idiots regarding training their dogs and two, I bet the reason for the low injuries per table saw owned is that the vast majority of the people who own them have stuff piled on them in their garage and the saws are never used.

Unlike tablesaws, dogs are always "on".

Peter

but a SawStop will never bite your HotDog. Ba-dah-bumph

My dog gets continuous use in the house. For the table saw I have to go out to the garage and only provide it the opportunity to attack a couple of times a week.

Of course with the dog I’m much more comfortable around it and probably let my guard down more often. That’s when it gets me.

Oh my goodness, John. I hope you don't lose an arm to that!
Mike

Double trouble!

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Glad to see the sawstop worked for you, Peter.

The sawstop is worth every penny. In our commercial cabinet shop we have 2 of them.
Since we got them, they have been activated 3 times, twice with a finger, and once with a piece of metallic laminate.
You can turn off the stop feature for cutting metallic laminate.

I'm sure with the cost of a lost finger to a commercial shop, you could buy a shop full of saws.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

How many tablesaw accidents did you have before you got them? (not being a wise ass, just wondering. If I had gobs of cash I'd upgrade to sawstop in a heartbeat).

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

As long as all the OSHA requirements were being met at the time of the accident, the accident would be down to wilful employee negligence and blatant disregard of safety protocols.

Your employee wouldn't have a leg to stand on. (Metaphorically speaking, of course ...)

-

I've been paying close attention to this thread and have been thinking of some response...

in the big picture the SawStop is the perfect technology...why?

because of all the 'safety' features for table saws the only one that is worth a flip is a riving knife...everything else is bullsh!t and detracts from effective use of a table saw...

blade guards are a joke and make good cuts rather difficult or impossible to make...

anti-kickback teeth damage the materials...

etc...

as has been noted any saw is inherently dangerous and when put in the hands of a fool becomes more so, and that is THEIR fault...

after 25 years of being a carpenter in various aspects I have had only 1 'accident' with power tools...and that was when the return spring on a miter saw broke when I was using it...no damage to me, but truly a scary experience...

yep, I've had a couple of close calls and have the scars to prove it, and that was MY OWN STUPIDITY and not the fault of the manufacturer of the tool..those incidents were NOT accidents as I would define them (hence I agree with the previous posters who said the same thing with such alacrity)...

I am one of those that thinks a lawyer chained to the bottom of the ocean is a good start as I am sick and tired of seeing good products becoming unavailable because the company was run out of business because of our stupid litigious society that prefers to blame the maker of a fine product rather than the STUPID RETARDED MORON who was using the tool...yeah, there are cases when a manufacturer should be sued because they made a cr@ppy product and did so with criminal negligence...

I am certainly not calling peterm an idiot or anything else, but I do have to believe the incident was his own fault...

if the inventor of the SawStop technology was really altruistic he would license the concept out at the going rate and be satisfied with that (and even that would make it so he wouldn't have to ever work again)...nope, he appears to be a greedy pig out for vengeance against an industry that shut him out...

either way, I would prefer to make my own economic choice when buying a table saw and not be forced to spend more money than I have...

That's not how it works in the US. Here, if you're injured on the job, the worker's comp system requires the employer (or its insurer) to pay for the injury, regardless of whether it is the employee's fault. In fact, that's what happened in the lawsuit against Ryobi -- employee does something dangerous on tablesaw and hurts himself, then the employer's worker's comp insurance paid for the injury and sought to get its money back from Ryobi based on Ryobi's failure to incorporate reasonable safety technology. The jury agreed with the insurance company.

I'll say it again: We all do stupid things from time to time. That's not an excuse, but it is reality.

Mike_P

You said what I have been thinking since I first read of the Ryobi Lawsuit.

Bob

I can't see wanting one for lutherie, or anything else I might do. Commercial shop, different mater. I never do anything on a table saw that would cut my a finger. And in lutherie there are even more jigs and fixtures than in most work. A lot of people these days are self-taught, and I was self taught. I think in teaching yourself you can get hurt once or twice before you learn what is safe for you, so a newbie might use a Sawstop. I got hurt twice with a table saw, once I reached in with a finger, I don't know why, and got a tiny superficial cut, another more serious injury was from kickback.

I'm a big believer these days in :

- Not using more saw that you need. All these big 3hp saws every little shop has these days, been there and done that. Saw stop wont save you from kickback.

- European safety gizmos, though for the most part I have had american saws.

- Giving the saw respect, not pushing into areas I know are dangerous. If that means not using a saw for everything someone else might use it for, I don't mind at all.

fyi...SawStop has had a true Riving Knife as a standard feature since it was introduced. You would have to work pretty hard to have a kickback on it.

As I said...a "True Riving Knife" with the knife fixed a few mm's away from the teeth tracking up and down with the blade. Not a splitter, not inclusive of crosscutting against the fence, lifting the work prior to the knife, ripping/crosscutting freehand or dropping it on top of the blade. You have control of that. Evolution is the only solution for some problems. You don't have control of wood closing up after the cut, pinching the blade and launching backwards. A true riving knife prevents that.

Are you suggesting, Tom, that a Mickey Mouse benchtop saw is somehow safer than a 3HP cabinet saw ?

I couldn't disagree more.

Using an underpowered saw beyond its capacity (which will inevitably happen sooner or later) is a lot more dangerous than using an industrial saw at any level.

I have long said we could solve a huge amount of the countrys problems if we could apply the death penalty to any lawyer or politican caught being dishonest !!!

Would be a sever lack of lawyers and politican's but HEY wheres the down side ?

and before someone decides to ream my but for the above comment !

ITS A JOKE PEOPLE !

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/