Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:28 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Heel cap difference ....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:37 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2023 6:32 pm
Posts: 18
First name: David
Last Name: Harris
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ok , this will probably start something but I have noticed a difference in tone with a difference of heel cap material . I recently fitted a heel cap to an acoustic as a final operation . Having played the guitar a fair bit before hand , I was familiar with the tone . After fitting a rosewood heel cap to a mahogany heel the tone has markedly changed for the better . Even rubbing a finger on the cap can be heard throughout the entire guitar . I have since read the information on this and there seems to be some division .
I can attest 100% to noticing a large difference in brightness and clarity , this is real . I am just a bit surprised at there being any difference at all . Ok there you have it . So , choose wisely , Peace .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:45 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:46 pm
Posts: 784
Location: Napa Valley
First name: David
Last Name: Foster
City: Napa
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94558
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ok I'll bite, this has nothing to do with the Tone. You probably had a gap behind the heel prior to adding heel cap lol

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:19 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3594
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Is this a job for FFT and some blue tack? :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:57 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:54 am
Posts: 57
First name: Victor
Last Name: Seal
City: Osseo
State: MI - Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 49266
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Man, you must have one heck of an ear. The only change in tone i ever hear is when i do my yearly string change.



These users thanked the author Victor Seal for the post: Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:03 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:13 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:11 pm
Posts: 2373
Location: Spokane, Washington
First name: Pat
Last Name: Foster
Country: USA
Focus: Build
The real test would be to remove the cap and see if the tone goes back like it was.

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com



These users thanked the author Pat Foster for the post (total 4): BlindGuitar (Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:15 pm) • bcombs510 (Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:55 pm) • dofthesea (Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:26 pm) • Chris Pile (Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:15 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:10 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13386
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Where to start.

Never mind, I'll pass, enjoy.....



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 3): Robbie_McD (Sat Oct 14, 2023 7:49 am) • bcombs510 (Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:02 am) • SteveSmith (Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:29 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:55 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 985
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Yeah you’re gonna wanna ditch that wood heelcap and get a brass heelcap if you’re really serious about tone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post (total 3): Kbore (Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:53 am) • Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:37 pm) • bcombs510 (Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:03 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:04 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:46 pm
Posts: 784
Location: Napa Valley
First name: David
Last Name: Foster
City: Napa
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94558
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
The only option is a tree that you fell yourself, stickered it and let it season for 45 + years.

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/



These users thanked the author dofthesea for the post: Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:12 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:46 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 3070
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I think it is the glue holding on the heel cap that has the biggest impact on tone. beehive



These users thanked the author doncaparker for the post: Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:12 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:39 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
I don't doubt the OP heard a difference in tone because he has stated as such but the question is why? Because I can't for the life of me come up with a reason as to how a heel cap would affect tone. Perhaps OP should build a guitar with several snap in heel caps and run an experiment.



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:13 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:13 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 pm
Posts: 985
First name: Josh
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Audio memory is notoriously fallible and this has been shown time and time again in blind listening studies so, and I intend no offence whatsoever in saying this, I give no credence to claims of this type where there is a significant time gap (eg greater than 15 seconds) between the hearer listening to an instrument in each of two states.

I’m not saying there is no possibility that adding material to the heel would effect the tone. But in the case of this reported change, there’s no way to know if it was real, or imagined without a better test.

If we presume there was a change, how do we know the heelcap was responsible, rather than any one of a thousand variables, from subtle changes in RH and temp, strings seating differently at the bridge having been removed/replaced, a new instrument “opening up” (another reported phenomena that divides opinion) and so on. All of this would need to ge controlled for in a genuine test. If a change happened at it was due to the heelcap, was it because adding any heelcap changes tone? Would a maple heelcap change tone differently to rosewood? Would just sticking a lump of poster putty to the heel make a difference? Is more weight better? Should we be fitting lead heel caps? Carbon fibre?

To many known unknowns.



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post (total 3): SteveSmith (Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:44 am) • jfmckenna (Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:20 am) • Hesh (Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:13 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 6:54 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1250
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I don't doubt that somehow the tone got better. I have no idea why. Since it was just getting finished, it might have just found where it wants to be. Tensions set.

David, did you tune it up to pitch after putting the Rosewood heel cap on?

I am ALWAYS amazed when the G,B and high E strings get within a quarter tone of being in pitch, and they completely wake up. Just night and day.

_________________
Why be normal?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:14 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:59 am
Posts: 678
First name: Eric
Last Name: Reid
City: Ben Lomond
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 95005
Country: USA
Status: Professional
joshnothing wrote:

To many known unknowns.


What a lovely toast. I'll raise my glass and take it further: "To many unknowns!"



These users thanked the author Eric Reid for the post (total 4): Bryan Bear (Mon Oct 16, 2023 12:55 pm) • Kbore (Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:56 am) • Durero (Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:45 pm) • J De Rocher (Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:21 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:14 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:46 pm
Posts: 784
Location: Napa Valley
First name: David
Last Name: Foster
City: Napa
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94558
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
The heel cap would only make a difference if glued on with HHG.

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:03 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 3070
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Somebody needs to do some heel cap deflection testing. Or heel cap Chladni patterns. beehive beehive


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:58 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:11 am
Posts: 67
First name: Michael
Last Name: Bradley
Country: United Kingdom
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Is there a veneer between the cap and heel, or purfling? Surely that has to be taken into consideration!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bftobin, bobgramann and 61 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com